Notice a trend?

Guest_UE_Research & Development_*

Hmm...somehow, I feel that three hours spent writing a story for a TC is a more constructive use of time than...say, three hours spent playing Starcraft on Battle.net :).

However, everyone is entitled to their own opinion on this matter. I think it's 'fun' to create universes and write stories. Other people might call me a masochist. In the end, it doesn't really matter.

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Tiresmoke

One thing though I would like to point out. Most people do not talk in a gramatically correct way. For my purposes in the storyline I am writing, the charactors speak much the same as those people around me in business do. Of course without the specific terms and such that do not apply. If you want to draw the player into the charactor then the charactor should talk in a human manner and not be a proffesor of English Lit or some such. That is at least my way of looking at things. While my plug may not be grammer checked it is at least spell checked and I have beta testers to let me know when things don't make much sense to them.

While I know not everyone will agree with me on this topic I still feel right in my assumptions on this subject and will likely be less inclined to take someone to seriously that has comments on my grammer this story.

A case can also be made for misspellings if it is done for a particular purpose in a storyline. For instance you could create a charactor that has a heavy accent or local dialect. In that case mispelling so long as it is consistant can enhance the story rather than detract from it so long as the writer goes about things in such a way that their audience can understand and follow the reasons for such.

Of course that is not to excuse someone that does these things for no reason though. A story can be read easier if it is written clearly and consisely with proper grammer and spelling when they are not called for in a way that requires them to be different.

Just my humble opinion. Even from a dumb Racecar Driver like me.

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zhouj

Quote

Originally posted by Tiresmoke:
**One thing though I would like to point out. Most people do not talk in a gramatically correct way. For my purposes in the storyline I am writing, the charactors speak much the same as those people around me in business do. Of course without the specific terms and such that do not apply. If you want to draw the player into the charactor then the charactor should talk in a human manner and not be a proffesor of English Lit or some such. That is at least my way of looking at things. While my plug may not be grammer checked it is at least spell checked and I have beta testers to let me know when things don't make much sense to them.

While I know not everyone will agree with me on this topic I still feel right in my assumptions on this subject and will likely be less inclined to take someone to seriously that has comments on my grammer this story.

A case can also be made for misspellings if it is done for a particular purpose in a storyline. For instance you could create a charactor that has a heavy accent or local dialect. In that case mispelling so long as it is consistant can enhance the story rather than detract from it so long as the writer goes about things in such a way that their audience can understand and follow the reasons for such.

Of course that is not to excuse someone that does these things for no reason though. A story can be read easier if it is written clearly and consisely with proper grammer and spelling when they are not called for in a way that requires them to be different.

Just my humble opinion. Even from a dumb Racecar Driver like me.

**

I'm not complaining about the idiosyncrasies of each character's speech. I actually feel that it makes for a plug-in since it adds depth. A plug-in creates a story. Like any good story, the characters should be interesting and experience change. However, the nature of my complaint is when there are grammar issues in outfit, weapon, or ship descriptions. And the narration within mission texts. The spelling mistakes are even more inexcusable. I mean, there's a dictionary TMPL for ResEdit...

------------------
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Azratax2

Quote

Originally posted by zhouj:
**I'm not complaining about the idiosyncrasies of each character's speech. I actually feel that it makes for a plug-in since it adds depth. A plug-in creates a story. Like any good story, the characters should be interesting and experience change. However, the nature of my complaint is when there are grammar issues in outfit, weapon, or ship descriptions. And the narration within mission texts. The spelling mistakes are even more inexcusable. I mean, there's a dictionary TMPL for ResEdit...

**

Yeah, i agree with you and Tiresmoke on making charachter speach distinctive.Where there is a real problem when people release plugs with things like "Teh new lazer gin from glitec is made to kil lotsa stuffs it is expencivee" in descs. Its never been quite that bad in my experience, but pretty close sometimes.
In general, though, any plugin with gross spelling and grammar errors in the narration isnt worth comparing to a real TC, or storyline plugin. I do wonder who would put enough work into a plugin to make a storyline, but never go through the minor effort of polishing it up. I doubt such a person would be capable of making a high quality plug in any case.
Likewise, for any PC Devers reading this, you can now have EVNEW export your plug to text, and then run the descs through spellcheck.
-Az

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(This message has been edited by Azratax2 (edited 01-25-2004).)

Martin Turner

Quote

Originally posted by Tiresmoke:
**One thing though I would like to point out. Most people do not talk in a gramatically correct way. For my purposes in the storyline I am writing, the charactors speak much the same as those people around me in business do. Of course without the specific terms and such that do not apply. If you want to draw the player into the charactor then the charactor should talk in a human manner and not be a proffesor of English Lit or some such. That is at least my way of looking at things. While my plug may not be grammer checked it is at least spell checked and I have beta testers to let me know when things don't make much sense to them.

While I know not everyone will agree with me on this topic I still feel right in my assumptions on this subject and will likely be less inclined to take someone to seriously that has comments on my grammer this story.

A case can also be made for misspellings if it is done for a particular purpose in a storyline. For instance you could create a charactor that has a heavy accent or local dialect. In that case mispelling so long as it is consistant can enhance the story rather than detract from it so long as the writer goes about things in such a way that their audience can understand and follow the reasons for such.

**

Well, maybe. People rarely talk in what would be correct written grammar, and they often speak in a fragmented way. But this doesn't mean you can make speech more realistic by making it ungrammatical. You have to develop a fine ear for how people speak, and represent that on paper. I've never met anyone who could do that who couldn't also write good, clean prose.

The same is true for describing heavy accents this isn't misspelling. The technical term is 'writing phonemically'. But there are actually rules for this as well. Most writers flag up the person's accent when they first speak. For example, you could write: "'Great', he said, but he drew out the vowel as if he was saying 'grey' with a 't' at the end." After that, it's ok to write phonemically.

Some kinds of grammatical mistakes are always wrong and look stupid even when you are recording someone's speech. For example, if you write "it's" when you mean 'belonging to it', or "its" when you mean 'it is'. Likewise, if you confuse 'they're' with 'there' or 'their'. The only time these would work would be when you were reporting something someone had written. For example, in John Masefield's Box of Delights, Kay finds a note which says: 'Rum Chops Cap. Ands orf. This means U.'

Tiresmoke, let me recommend that you take everyone's comments seriously, especially if you disagree with them. If one person is annoyed enough by what they see as a fault to mention it, ten people will have been annoyed enough to stop playing your plug who didn't bother to tell you. The two biggest criticisms that people make of plugins (generalising over the last eight years) are 1) it was buggy and 2) it was full of misspellings and grammatical errors. It's actually very hard to get into a story if the grammar keeps on jumping up and slamming you in the face. Strive to make your writing natural, which means, in a sense, making it invisible people notice what you are saying, not how you are saying it. Once you have achieved that, you can start making it distinctive when there is a reason for it to highlight emotion, to portray a particular character, to set the scene, whatever.

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Dr. Trowel

Quote

Originally posted by Martin Turner:
** <useful advice>

**

Wot 'e said.

Lindley

Yeah, nonstandard speech is going to be a definite issue in my TC, since in the Firefly 'verse, people talk sort of old-west-like. And occasionally break into bouts of Chinese. (How am I gonna pull that off?)

But in any case, that's still in the future....I'm not worried about missions just yet.

------------------

Tiresmoke

Quote

Originally posted by Azratax2:
**"Teh new lazer gin from glitec is made to kil lotsa stuffs it is expencivee"
-Az

**

I have never seen any plug that poorly written. That may be why I can't see the weight of this arguement. Sorry if I feel this whole issue is overblown. However I may yet get on the bandwagon if I find something written like that. Yet if someone uses a double negative or something like that and it is not predominant in their plug I can overlook a mistake without making it a capital crime. That is the way people talk and that is my point.

Let me ask you something. Have you ever seen a mistake in a book by your favorite author? I certainly have. Yet I still like the author and his works. I can overlook a mistake in writting if the overall content is good and the mistake is not so prevalent that it overrides the good that is in the story.

That is just my take on the subject.

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Martin Turner

I've seen loads of plugs that were poorly written, and they completely put me off.

I'm wondering, though, if you've got a too rigid view of what is correct grammar. A double negative is not in itself grammatically incorrect (like that one, for example 'not... incorrect').

On the other hand, poor writing comes in many shapes and forms.

Some people overwrite: "The pirate grimaced menacingly as he slouched sloppily into the foul smelling room."

Some people try for a style which they can't keep up: 'The high priest of the IFF stepped into the temple. "What dost thou here, rascal?" He uttered. "Thou canst not be here, and if you come here again I'll make trouble for you."'

For others the problem is thay they haven't learnt to vary their sentences: "Grimson walked into the room. He pulled out a gun. He pointed it at the bystanders. One of the girls screamed. "I'll do you" said Grimson. "No, please don't." Said the girl.

For others their vocabulary slows down the pace and distances everything. "The navigator extended his fingers to establish the precise velocity of the craft. But, without any warning whatsoever, the pilot who understood the navigator's psychology inclined the ailerons steeply until the aeroplane's descent became so rapid that it threatened to unsettle that personage's intestines."

For still others, they try so hard for the opposite that their 'gritty' language is almost unreadable: "Brat struck him, spat and snarled. "You xxxxxxx xxxx. You'll pay for what you xxxxxxx did. You and your xxxxxxx kind are all the xxxxxxx same, you piece of xxxx." He said.

And then some people just write in a stilted fashion.

The secret? Read what you have written out loud. No matter what grammatical 'mistakes' people make when talking, they rarely speak unnaturally. On the other hand, most people lose their naturalness when they start writing.

The other secret? Edit. Go back and cut out the dead wood.

The other, other secret? KISS - or 'Keep it simple, stupid'.

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Tiresmoke

So are we talking then, cheap novel, or maybe spelling and grammer? Let's not change the subject in mid stream here. Although you had me rolling on the floor while I read that post. I am sure I have started to read a couple books like that back in high school.

OK, ok if my writing style is that bad then you have something to complain at me about and I will except your judgement. But if I made a stumble on some technical grammer rule then my statement stand that I will give the complaint the weight it deserves and ignore you.

Fair enough?

I still find the whole issue silly really. It comes down to the simple fact that if people enjoy doing something they should not have to go through this kind of sillyness especially when they do things to the best of their abilities. We can all site extreme examples of things that are wrong with plugs or any game add on. Yet if you get it for free and you don't like it then you got exactly what you paid for. If you liked it then you just got a bonus. There is no good reason to come and complain about it no matter.

Just my two cents worth.

Let's get back on topic here. Notice a trend? HeHeHe Come on guys let's lighten up a bit. Let's not judge things that haven't been seen before you get a chance to see them. If people have half a chance plugs will come out for Nova. But let's not scare folks away from doing work because we have an axe to gring about something that most people won't even notice and let the extremely bad stuff find it's way to the trashcan all by itself.

If we want plugs then we should encourage folks to write them and to help them without making things feel so uncomfortable that they don't want their work shown due to bad press before they can show their wares.

Nuff said?

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(This message has been edited by Tiresmoke (edited 01-25-2004).)

Guest_UE_Research & Development_*

Quote

(How am I gonna pull that off?)

I suggest you use pinyin, the convention for turning Chinese speech into romanized text. If you take a look at a newer map of China and note how the cities are spelled 'Shanghai', 'Beijing', 'Chongqing', etc, and how 'Beijing' was spelled 'Peking' in the past, you've seen how pinyin works. Of course, you'd have to have someone proficient at Chinese listen to the dialogue and write it down as pinyin, but...you can handle that problem yourself. It's probably the only viable option, as it is next to impossible to display the Chinese ideograms themselves in-game in such a way that they show up correctly across most computers (it's probably impossible to begin with), and it gives at least a basic impression of the sound of the language.

Your other options are to use one of the two other romanization systems, but you'll probably be hard-pressed to find someone well-versed in either.

Of course, you'd probably do well to only have several lines in the language, and then subsequently use English, notating that the characters are actually speaking in Chinese.

Quote

For others their vocabulary slows down the pace and distances everything. "The navigator extended his fingers to establish the precise velocity of the craft. But, without any warning whatsoever, the pilot who understood the navigator's psychology inclined the ailerons steeply until the aeroplane's descent became so rapid that it threatened to unsettle that personage's intestines."

Dammit.

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(This message has been edited by UE_Research & Development (edited 01-25-2004).)

zhouj

Quote

Originally posted by UE_Research & Development:
**
I suggest you use pinyin, the convention for turning Chinese speech into romanized text. If you take a look at a newer map of China and note how the cities are spelled 'Shanghai', 'Beijing', 'Chongqing', etc, and how 'Beijing' was spelled 'Peking' in the past, you've seen how pinyin works. Of course, you'd have to have someone proficient at Chinese listen to the dialogue and write it down as pinyin, but...you can handle that problem yourself. It's probably the only viable option, as it is next to impossible to display the Chinese ideograms themselves in-game in such a way that they show up correctly across most computers (it's probably impossible to begin with), and it gives at least a basic impression of the sound of the language.

Your other options are to use one of the two other romanization systems, but you'll probably be hard-pressed to find someone well-versed in either.

Of course, you'd probably do well to only have several lines in the language, and then subsequently use English, notating that the characters are actually speaking in Chinese.**

You could also happen to include an image alone with the text that shows the chinese characters (at least in missions). But then you would into the problem of both a) people who don't speak chinese or people who don't read traditional lettering or don't read simplified not understand the text. It does make for increased realism though.

On a sidenote, are you chinese? Because most references I've seen or heard to the voyages of Admiral Zheng He have been by historians, history students, or by the Chinese who reminsce about the glory of Chinese history. I would be the latter.

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"I came, I saw, I conqeured."
Julius Caeser

SpacePirate

(quote)Originally posted by UE_Research & Development:
**Dammit.;)

~ SpacePirate

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**

orcaloverbri9

(quote)Originally posted by UE_Research & Development:
**Dammit.:)

Anyway, this shouldn't turn out to be too much of a problem for me. While I do write with a better vocabulary than many, I don't overdo it. I usually only write words that most know but are more interesting than in your basic, bare, makes-sense-but-is-boring vocabulary (e.g. "he stalks off" instead of "he walks away"), so my writing isn't too hard to read.

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Guest_UE_Research & Development_*

Good idea, with the Chinese characters. Especially if you can get cutscenes, you can do it the Final Fantasy 7 Ending Movie way (read: put subtitles in lieu of audible conversation). That way, you could get someone to write out the Chinese characters, the pinyin, and the translation, and the overall affect would be pretty cool.

Orcalover: Yes, I think so too ;). We can have that problem together.

Quote

On a sidenote, are you chinese? Because most references I've seen or heard to the voyages of Admiral Zheng He have been by historians, history students, or by the Chinese who reminsce about the glory of Chinese history. I would be the latter.

Yes, I am Chinese, and yes, the latter is true :). Unfortunately, some later official (was it the emperor? I can't remember) ordered all the records destroyed and ended the naval exploration program. And on a personal note, I barely know enough written Chinese to write simple sentences. My verbal grasp is adequate for normal conversation, if that's any consolation to me.

Hehhehheh...Zheng is my last name. I wasn't thinking of him specifically when I wrote that, although I've read about him before quite a bit. Considering that it is believed that Zheng He was a eunuch, however, any relation to him is quite doubtful :D.

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(This message has been edited by UE_Research & Development (edited 01-25-2004).)

zhouj

(quote)Originally posted by UE_Research & Development:
**Good idea, with the Chinese characters. Especially if you can get cutscenes, you can do it the Final Fantasy 7 Ending Movie way (read: put subtitles in lieu of audible conversation). That way, you could get someone to write out the Chinese characters, the pinyin, and the translation, and the overall affect would be pretty cool.

Orcalover: Yes, I think so too ;). Zheng He was also Muslim. Apparently, he was taken prisoner by a Prince as a child and castrated before that Prince became the new emperor. It is said that the Zheng He fleet was intended to scare the rulers of neighboring countries to prevent the desposed emperor from seeking refuge there since it was rumored he had sailed away. I have the same last name as the Chinese president. Or ex-President though he retains control of the Central Military Commission still. And my mom has the same last name (Zhou) as the Chinese dynasty. I'm unfortunately probably not related or I'd be in China being groomed for power. As if I'm not being conditioned to go into American politics by parents though... Wow. That really disgressed. On a more on-topic note, would you find it beneficial to make historical references within plug's? And do you think most people would get it? This would be mostly in the planetary descriptions and such.

------------------
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"I came, I saw, I conqeured."
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**

Lindley

I don't think I'll be using Chinese characters. At most, I might write it in English, with <> around it. I dunno. To demonstrate the usage, here's a little excerpt from one of the online Firefly scripts (at (url="http://"http://www.fireflyfans.net):")www.fireflyfans.net):(/url)

Quote

INARA
Right. You're a criminal mastermind.
What was the last cargo we snuck past
the Alliance to transport?

MAL
We made a perfectly good piece-

INARA
What was the cargo?

MAL
They were dolls!

INARA
They were little geisha dolls with
big heads that wobbled!

MAL
People love those!

INARA
And what exactly was our net profit
on the famous wobbly-headed doll
caper?

MAL
"Our" cut? You're in the gang now?

INARA
Well, since I can't seem to find work
as companion, I might as well become
a petty thief like you!

Beat. Oops. The air goes out of both of them.

MAL
Petty.

INARA
(backtracking)
I didn't mean petty.

MAL
What did you mean?

INARA
(meekly)
(Suo-SHEE?)

MAL
That's chinese for petty.

INARA
No, that's a narrow... there's
nuances of meaning that...

MAL
Maybe you shoulda stuck with your
wiles.

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Guest_UE_Research & Development_*

Quote

On a more on-topic note, would you find it beneficial to make historical references within plug's? And do you think most people would get it? This would be mostly in the planetary descriptions and such.

Probably, as long as the references aren't too terribly obscure. But most common historical references should be within the grasp of the ordinary person (of course, there are always going to be people who have no idea what you're talking about, but then again, those are the same kind of people who probably do not read the descs in the first place.

Quote

<snip>

Do what you choose. If I may offer a suggestion, though, show a couple of people first and ask them if they get the correct impression before adopting a particular system or method.

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Terek E`Ban

Quote

Originally posted by Katana:
**

Quote

Originally posted by Onyx:
That said, I'm usually skeptical of projects which seek to encompass the entire engine, because I wince at the possibility of gimmicks just to use some far-flung feature.

This is the exact reason that I don't like the PlugPack outfits very much. I agree wholeheartedly.

**

Damn, I came much too late - the topic has already reached its end... and I haven`t read all the posts. :rolleyes:
But I want to answer to this anyway:

I dont use all the little engine features just because they are there... I think about an outfit (or anything else) I want to add and if it would be cool/usefull to have it in the game. And if the outfit is not "supported" I try to let it work using little tricks etc. I really dont understand why it is bad to use all the little features if they are needed to let somethig work they way you want it to work.
And if you wouldn`t like them you never had played Nova since the original scenario uses a lot of new features of the engine...

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(This message has been edited by Terek E`Ban (edited 03-29-2004).)

zhouj

I think it's that people dislike a plug-in based on creating new outfits that use every feature of the engine rather than trying to improve the plot.

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