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I personally can't wait! I am really excited and have been keeping up with everything Darwin and Mac OS X (i.e on rumor boards). They're really interesting and you should check some of them out!
------------------ From Left Hand Phoenix of the AWL http://www.awl.cjb.net/ Halo, Homeworld, and Diablo II.
Mac OS X will be mad kick-ass for many reasons. First and foremost, it's based on a Unix variant. No more "Mac Os is not powerful"! No more "You can't program on a Mac"! NO MORE "You can't hack with a Mac"! Of course, it also means that you can hack into it, but the variant they use is pretty secure.
Also, it will be extremely stable and effecient. One guy I know got a developer's release; he's had it for a month, and it's yet to crash.
Next, it will support the latest graphics technologies. That will be very good for obvious reasons. (Quake on Unix/Linux is the most awesome thing ever.)
------------------ God. Root. What is difference? -Pitr
AIM: obormot345
Yeah, but I think I'll wait and see. According to all the hype, it is getting rid of a lot of the features of the MAC OS I like:
being able to keep actual stuff on your desktop
Being able to download to the desktop
being able to use really old applications (and games) that aren't PowerMac native
the launcher (I use this all the time)
the control strip
What good is power and stability if it's no longer user-friendly? Jude
------------------
User friendliness is no longer a hot topic in OS's. The demo I saw looked kick-ass, but I am going to wait about a month before I buy it if I do...
------------------ "Your attack has been rendered harmless. It is, however, quite pretty"
Well, Jude, I guess we can say that's it's all quite revolutionary, so chuck user-friendliness out the window. (bad idea, in my opinion, but I don't dictate to Apple) Besides, don't you just love Unix?
You can still make a Launcher, I think. Just put aliases into a folder, display as buttons, and make it a popup. (or not, even)
I, for one, appreciate the Unix kernel greatly, but hate the detractions from the uniqueness and friendlyness of the Mac OS.
I'll never upgrade anyway (still using 8.1 and 7.5.1), so why should I even bother thinking about OS X?
------------------ "His Strangelove All-Purpose Do-It-Yourself Defensive First Second or Third Strike Indestructible Fantastic State-of-the-Art B-Ware Offensive Attack Bomber can't compare with our M & M E & A Sub-Supersonic Invisible and Noiseless Defensive Second-Strike Offensive Attack Bomber." - from Closing Time , by Joseph Heller.
Ok, I donĀ“t know whats good, but I know one BAD thing: No desktop!!!!!! I hate the idea! I love the desktop.
------------------ If itĀ“s quality software you can read "Made with Macintosh" -Shadow
Quote
Originally posted by Shadow: **Ok, I donĀ“t know whats good, but I know one BAD thing: No desktop!!!!!! I hate the idea! I love the desktop.
**
Get into the Unix spirit, comrade! It's called /. (the root level)
Actually, UNIX isn't that great, it's old technology. OSX is taking too many steps back, such as eliminating the recourse fork. From what I've seen, OSX could very well ruin the mac. Anybody who upgrades to it will need to buy all new software, and oh what a joy that will be. Apple's stupid for doing a lot of the things they've done, and are doing, which is why Bill Gates will always be ahead of them, he knows what the market wants, and does his best to provide it. If the people at Apple are too blind to realize that the users of the mac want a user-friendly platform, then maybe I'll go buy a PC. I love my mac, but if they're going to screw up a good thing, then they no longer deserve my business.
On another note, I'm sick and tired of people worshipping Apple like it was some sort of religion, it's just a company that makes computers, there's a lot more important things in this world to spend your time obsessing over.
I think what many Macintosh users forget is that what has set the Apple OS apart from Windows over these troublesome decades has been the key issue of User Friendliness. Mac's have been the dominate computer in the educational market because children of all ages have been able to understand the Mac OS with just a few simple minutes of instruction. My family owned the very first Macintosh ($2,500 with a 9 inch grey-scale monitor built in), then a Quadra 605, then an iMac, and now a G4. While Compaq's, Dells and other PC (Windows oriented) companies had lower prices, the Macintosh OS pulled us back each time.
I might as well put this down on the table now, because it is one of my main points. I know and work with DOS, LINUX, UNIX and the Mac OS. DOS is old, but when a PC crashes, god help those who are not familiar with its commands. While Linux and Unix are very stable systems, they are NOT FAMILY ORIENTED. At work, we run 64 Sun Servers all using Unix. Trying to get 64 servers to run different software, test files, upload and download 100Gig files, while remaining on a network is really only possible with Unix. Otherwise, it is an ugly, brash piece of software which should not be brought inside the doors of a family household. Why on earth would you use Unix or even Linux for that matter on a family computer?
While developers or "guru's" may want to use Linux/Unix, that is not the market that Apple has traditionally targeted. Apple add's for the iMac and iMovie (an excellant program by the way) show small children dancing around, or family movies. Try explaining to a 60 year old grandfather how to use Linux, and he will either belt you to death, or buy Windows.
In my opinion, Apple has made a serious marketing mistake. Firstly, any child (as we have seen in the news lately) can hack a Linux run server, where as Mac OS X Server (based on the traditional OS X) has been adopted by the United States Army because it is so secure. If Linux based Kernels are used in OS X (which as of the latest beta release they are), then hacking a mac will now simply require writing a generic virus. No longer with programs like the LUVBUG or the MELISSA virus (the lesser know CHEYRLOBAL or HAMPSTER viruses are equally as terrible) simply affect PC's or Linux/Unix based computers.
Apple should not take away what has made it great for all these years, the Finder. Institutions for "mentally handicapped" people use the Macintosh in order for teachers to interact with students. The new finder is hardly as simple to use, rather it is simply a picture best left untouched, an immovable gateway into the HD (Hard Drive). Simply making an OS more compatible for programmers is not what Apple should do. Leave the OS intact, but at the same time, spawn off a Mac OS X Dev --> for developers. Keep Mac OS X's interface intact, put in a Linux Kernal, and spread small bits of Linux compatability code throughout, and then let the developers use their own software to create games, etc.
Will I upgrade to OS X? No. While the design is amazing, what I gain in eye-candy, I loose in user-friendliness, and the trade off is far from even. Hopefully, Apple will learn from what I consider to be a worse mistake than Copland (the mistake being that they are actually selling it). If you are used to Linux, then Mac OS X is for you, but for anyone who is a true Mac OS user at heart, give this new operating system a wide berth.
Adi Bridges webmaster@macology.com Macology - The study of all things Macintosh
------------------ As I travel through the gates of hell to face the deamons, I know my knife is by my side, and that all hell can't stop me
PS: Sorry for the long opinion, but I hope it clears up, or at least gives people some information with which to make their own descisions. On the elimination of the Resource Fork --> A damn shame, it was quite a useful tool for customizing and working with the Mac, but times do change. Also, its true, Apple is simply a company, but with that company comes a "personality" that many companies truely lack in todays market economy. It is quite hard to stand up against a company that controls almost 90% of the worlds Operating System market, and have the guts to produce a computer like the iMac at the same time. Worshipped as a god-like company - no. Respected for its efforts and its technological advances - yes.
Give credit where credit is due, but never loose sight of who your target customer really is............ it can cost you.
I really don't think we can judge OS X by what other people have said or seen. We must each decide for ourselves when we have actually used it. Then and only then can we be a fair critic of the user interface, maybe it is easier and better maybe not. We'll just have to wait and see.
Chamrin
Originally posted by BackSTABa: **PS: Sorry for the long opinion, but I hope it clears up, or at least gives people some information with which to make their own descisions. On the elimination of the Resource Fork -- > A damn shame, it was quite a useful tool for customizing and working with the Mac, but times do change. Also, its true, Apple is simply a company, but with that company comes a "personality" that many companies truely lack in todays market economy. It is quite hard to stand up against a company that controls almost 90% of the worlds Operating System market, and have the guts to produce a computer like the iMac at the same time. Worshipped as a god-like company - no. Respected for its efforts and its technological advances - yes.
No resource fork? are you sure? Is apple windizing the mac? I think things like stability (not knifeability :)) are more important than frills like being able to splat real suff on the desktop. But chucking the resource fork (shining light, corous aahs) is stupid. **
I agree with BackSTABa! Good speach! Sure, itĀ“s a good idea to spice it up a little, but donĀ“t take away, just add. All they would have to do is to add some cool sounds and graphic. Oh, and donĀ“t you agree on this one: The apple CD-player should have the option to adjust bass and treble, and some other functions would be great too, donĀ“t you think? Is there any one here that is a DIY, IĀ“m talking about audio here. Or, maby fan of LEXX? Well, thatĀ“s all I have to say. Cya.
Ok, it's good to be back.
On to some "replies"
First, I was told on another web board that the desktop will be re-implemented later on. (Unfortuneatly, the topic was deleted...I wish I knew why) Remember, Mac OS X is to be introduced over a year and new features will definately be introduced over that time. Since it's possible to have a desktop in GNOME, why not in Mac OS X?
About hacking, wouldn;t it be possible to make different users other than Root users and set them as the main starup user without entering some type of password?
About the resource fork...damn, I just didn't know... :frown: I should have known...damn
Oh, well. On the other hand, I do like Unix somewhat, however non-user friendly It is it IS very stable and etc. Talk to you all later. (BTW, has anyone heard of any REALLY good online games for the Mac or both lately? Thanks.)
Personally I think that getting rid of the desktop and resource fork is like taking the heart of the OS, they are 2 obvious things that make the Mac OS different from a lot of other systems (LINUX, etc...). I know a lot of people who use the Mac because it is so easy to use and is (fairly) stable. You don't need to be a genius to know how to use it, and if you're good with computers and have the knowledge it can be a powerful tool.
Phoenix155 (this could get confusing): Have you played AOE2? Not out for Mac but it's an amazing game. A good online Mac game is Warcraft 2: Battle.net Edition. Also Diablo 2 is going to come out soon.
Phoenix
------------------ (url="http://"http://commonwealth.cjb.net")Commonwealth Software(/url)
If Mac OS X is Unix based, there is a little perk. At the site winehq.com, they offer a program that allows you to run Windows 3.1/95/98 programs in a Unix/Linux enviroment. It has the capability to run 90% of Windows programs! Check this out, it might make mac gaming much better.
Check out the latest info on WWDC and OS X DP4 at (url="http://"http://www.go2mac.com/articles/read.cfm?id=201")http://www.go2mac.co...read.cfm?id=201(/url) According to it, among many other changes, DP4 allows you to place icons on the desktop once again. (Yay!) As far as I know, the resource fork will be gone forever, but didn't I hear something about file "packages" which would serve very nearly the same purpose?...
------------------ ĀIf a little knowledge is dangerous, where is the man who has so much as to be out of danger?Ā - T.H. Huxley
Yah, packages replace resource forks on non-HFS/HFS+ drives. This was a rather heated discussion on Apples human interface list a while back. The only problem with packages that I'm aware of is that Apple hasn't dealt with finder **** -info properly yet. This may be a big problem, but I think it will be one of Apples largest priorities in terms of future development.
All versions of OS X have used Mach as a kernel, never linux. The newest release uses a modified version of Mach 3. Security won't be such a big deal, since consumer releases will not have all the standard *nix utils installed(ftp, http, telnet servers). This alone removes most possible security holes.
Apple seems to be taking many of the major interface problems seen in DP3 at least partially serious. They've cleaned up a couple of the idiocies of the dock, which is good :). The menu changes (aside from the Apple menu) are actually well thought out, and more logical then the current menu layout.
I for one think that the memory protection, kernel level threading, smp ... are LONG overdue. My only possible problem lies with the pre-emptive multitasking. I'm not very familiar with the PPC's cache mapping architecture, but I can guarantee that it will rely heavily on spatial and temporal locality of reference. In this case being ripped out of tightly optimised loops would create some heavy performance penalties. I guess we'll see how smart the schedular is once it comes out though.
Eetyd: I am afraid that WINE is rather dependant on the x86 architecture. If after the final version of WINE is released, maybe someone could take up the good cause to make a "WINE PPC" that works on the PPC architecture instead of just x86. But until then, if you want to run Wondows, either find out how to initilize a separate partition as MS-DOS (this is only speculation. When i was once fooling around with pdisk, I did my thing, restarted and was offered to change the partition into one of 3 option: HFS, HFS+, or MS-DOS. I have not been able to reproduce this occurrence, however... :frown:), or buy a PC.