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Uh, I didn't intend this to be some type of Mac VS PC thing. I know that you all use Macs, so let's get back to the original topic:
What do all of you people think about Mac OS X?
------------------ From Left Hand Phoenix of the AWL (url="http://"http://www.awl.cjb.net/")http://www.awl.cjb.net/(/url) Halo, Homeworld, and Diablo II.
Quote
Originally posted by Phoenix155: **Uh, I didn't intend this to be some type of Mac VS PC thing. I know that you all use Macs, so let's get back to the original topic:
**
Not true. Some of us use PCs as well, or only PCs. I, for instance, am writing this on my crappy Dell Celery with crappy Win98.
But I think Mac OS X is cool. ("It's Mac OS on Viagra!" -me) Some of the interface changes though, like the single window, and the Dock, are quite undesirable.
------------------ God. Root. What is difference? -Pitr
AIM: obormot345
Phoenix155, when discussing Mac OS X, I think it is hard not to compare it to Windows or Linux on the PC, after all, theese are the competitors it will face when it is released.
------------------
(This message has been edited by Captain Apple (edited 05-28-2000).)
Originally posted by Soviet mikee: **Originally posted by BackSTABa: Soviet mikee, First of all, Apple does not make just the iMac computer, a simple trip to the Apple store (store.apple.com) should clear up an misgivings you may have. As it is, out of the G4, iMac, G3 (when the iMac first appeared) iBook and PowerBook, the iMac is #1.
----I said COMSUMERS and made a dividing line between consumer (ie iMac) and professional (G4). The iBook is a consumer portable and is nothing more than a portable iMac. What I was refering to was the difference in how companies like Gateway and Dell...etc... offer a variety of under $1500 computers aimed at comsumers, not professionals. The Quadra for example, was a "box" that you could change around and expand as you saw fit... and YOU being the consumer, not someone who could afford a G4. Apple divides their computer market with portable/home and comsumer/prof.
Secondly, Steve Jobs is hardly a moron. Firstly, he invented the first Apple computer, so along that line of simple logic, he therefore had a great impact on the iMac. Without his actions 20 odd years ago, the iMac would not have existed, would it?
------Steve Jobs has NEVER invented a computer. The original Apple was designed by Woz who is about the only "leader" in Apple who was really a great person. He wasn't interested in money. All Jobs did was find a way to duplicate the computers Woz was making for his fellow college students. Apple was already working on the iMac long before Jobs return. Many schools has all-in-one Macs, consumers requested they be able to buy one, so a new design was made, Jobs wanted it to be fruity and so the iMac was born.
Thirdly, many of NeXT's ideas in their proposed OS were not only integeral parts of OS 8, 8.5 and 9, but they also play a major role in OS X's main architecture to date.
---And these ideas were from everyone BUT Jobs, those people would of worked for BeOS, Apple or MS... so they would still be there.
You don't really have an argument here, just simple heated opinions backed up by blatently false "facts". Please try to do simple research before openly blasted a multi-millionare. If he was a moron, would he be that rich?
You didn't even know that WOZ invented the Apple. And Jobs is a multi-billionaire. All Jobs did was take credit for other people's work. Anyone who spends $100000 and abuses his employees is not only a moron, but a total pr*ck.
I think it is you who needs to check his facts
Firstly Soviet, define your idea of a consumer for me. For many people, the G4 is a consumer computer, but if you define a consumer who is someone willing to spend under $1,100 for a computer, then the iMac is really their only option. Oh, and the iBook IS a seperate computer from the iMac no matter what you think. Its motherboard design and interior electronics are not as similiar as you might think. The G4 is hardly for professionals only. At around $1,500 for a 400mhz with 64mb of RAM and a 10Gig HD, this isn't exactly a graphic proffesionals dream product is it? Unless of course your defenition of a graphic expert or professional is as warped as your view of a consumer. Secondly, many of the ideas at NeXT WERE the brain child of Steve Jobs, but their actual final versions were developed by others. And, the first real "Apple" or "Macintosh" was brought to life in a garage (as we all know) by BOTH STEVE's. While Wozniac (I think this is right) actually developed the majority of the technology, without Jobs skills in promoting the product, Apple would never have gotten off the ground. Jobs is doing a great job for Apple, how can you argue with the huge profits it is turning in while just a few years ago ol' Gil nearly drove the company into the ground. Finally, Apple is hardly turning into a PC company. It is simply becoming more main stream in order to compete with other computer manufactorers. Would you prefer that Apple stay out in its field all by itself, and become an isolated dinosaur, or to venture into the markets owned by Dell, Compaq and others in order to establish itself. Everything Steve has done has been in aid of making Apple "Different". Are you simply ignoring his speech of "Thinking Different"?? Did this pass through your minds without registering. And finally, to get back onto the OSX track, the next developer release should contain an enhanced, more mac like Finder.
Maybe you should put aside your childess emotions Soviet Mikee, after all, everything you, I, or any other member of this forum can think of can also be thought of by those at Apple who are payed the big bucks to do so.
Oh, PS: Why dont you define your idea of abusing employee's while you define a consumer and a professional for us. Then you might make more sense. It would also help to actually learn about a Mac before telling us about what is going wrong with them.
Oh, PPS: I own a G4 because I got a good deal on it, better than Dell. I think its pretty consumer oriented for me, even if it did cost $100 less.
------------------ As I travel through the gates of hell to face the deamons, I know my knife is by my side, and that all hell can't stop me
Obormot (Ok, that sould be right!) and Captain Apple, I understand. I made some assumptions that I souldn;t have.
Also, I have used both Windows and Linux (Like Linux a lot!) and I see what Captain Apple means. Keep comparing, it's good for the soul...I don't really know what that means! (Joke, there)
I personally am very excited about Cocoa. It's supposedly going to be pretty easy to use when compared to other languages! Maybe I'll be able to do some REAL things for EV or EV:O!
(This message has been edited by Phoenix155 (edited 05-28-2000).)
Originally posted by Phoenix155: **Obormat (did i spell that right?) and Captain Apple, I understand. I made some assumptions that I souldn;t have. **
Actually, you didn't spell that right. It's Obormot, all the vowels are O's. It's ok, you tried. Are you American, just wondering? Because, no offense, but Americans usually have so much trouble with Russian words, even simple ones... sometimes I just wonder.
For starters, if they take off the resource fork, what does this mean for EV/O? an especially plug-ins? If they don't make a enw resedit (Ummm, Dataedit?) most plug-in makers will be really lost. And EVedit and Schmelta-V won't work either. So EV/O is going to have to get an overhaul to work on MacOSX, or get an emulator.
Secondly NO DESKTOP?!?!?!?!?!?!?! WHAT ON EARTH ARE THEY THINKING!?!?!?!?!?! It is the most used surface on my computer, I download all the stuff I'm not sure I want to keep there, to save having to dig it out later, and it keeps my "Macintosh HD" window only for stuff I know I want to keep. (I am pretty sure it is a similar situation for all those people who like to download lots, and lots and lots of demos and stuff, then trash it an hour(or two) later
Thirdly. One good thing is that they are actually going to get a new calculator for the apple menu. One that hasn't been around since, ummm, about system 7.3, or was it 6.x? Somewhere way back then. I havn't seen it, but it should be much better. It may even have .......(drumroll, flashing lights)...... scientific functions like square root, square, and advanced things like that (anybody hear the sarcasm?) Maybe they'll put a graphing calculator into it, or give us the full version of that 3d grapher program.
Fourthly, aparanlty they are building some kind of RAM block, so that one app crashing will only take that app down, and won't affect any of the others or the finder. This should be a very good improvement. It will probably run much faster than 8.x or 9.x on the G4s.
------------------ Zitchas
You really are being stupid Mikee. Do some research. The WHOLE SCHEME OF THE IMAC WAS STEVE'S. The design lab outside of Apples headquarters kept the actual design of the iMac under tight security until its release, but the idea of an all-in-one 2 steps to set up cheap and easy to use computer was what Apple lacked and Steve wanted to bring back. I dont care what you think about Steve, have you own opinion, dont bother trying to force it upon others. I simply don't care enough to continue this little quarrel with you.
Secondly, the First Macintosh, Apple, the name doesn't matter was built in a wooden frame using essential parts Woz DID get from his father, but Jobs did help. Or are you saying that Woz was a moron, Steve did nothing, and founded the company with Woz by accident?
Thirdly, computer stock you are talking about is simply web-based companies you fool. Amazon.com, iGrocery, those companies have inflated stock. Maybe you should listen to Marketplace on NPR more. Companies like Compaq, IBM, Dell and yes, Apple are solid investment stocks right now. In fact, Dell has reported strong earnings while Compaq has had a slight shake-up. Apple has been voted a good stock choice by many leading investment firms. But hey, what do they know?
Last off, recent speed tests show that a 1000mhz Athalon is only .0024 seconds faster than a 500mhz G4 using most graphic programs and games (Ya little Quaker you), and i doubt your dualer is half price, but hey.
And a bottom of the line G4 isn't just for professionals. It CAN BE, more so than the iMac, but any user that wants expandability isn't going to say, "oh, Apple doesn't sell a consumer product for me! Better get a PC!" They will say, hmmm, an iMac costs roughly $1,300, a G4 with a 17" monitor can be found for around $1,800. Price difference is $500, hardly something that only professionals and major corporations can afford.
You are making Apple into a god like company yourself. Every press release and statement they make, you consider to be either black or white. There are grey areas in all their releases, and you don't need to analyze every word. HAL was in one commercial btw, but hey, call it a mascot if you want. Just because their press release says one thing, doesn't mean you have to stand by it tooth and nail. Why don't you use your imagination. "Oh, if Apple says its professional, then how can it be a consumer!". I don't know, but you seem to, so please, help this obviously completely unaware Mac user out. Shed some light into this forum.
Anyway, this whole post was ment to be opinions and thoughts on OS X. Considering you know nothing ABOUT OS X, why are you bothering to take people down this stupid side route?
(This message has been edited by BackSTABa (edited 05-28-2000).)
Originally posted by BackSTABa: **Secondly, the First Macintosh, Apple, the name doesn't matter was built in a wooden frame using essential parts Woz DID get from his father, but Jobs did help. Or are you saying that Woz was a moron, Steve did nothing, and founded the company with Woz by accident? price, but hey.
And a bottom of the line G4 isn't just for professionals. It CAN BE, more so than the iMac, but any user that wants expandability isn't going to say, "oh, Apple doesn't sell a consumer product for me! Better get a PC!" They will say, hmmm, an iMac costs roughly $1,300, a G4 with a 17" monitor can be found for around $1,800. Price difference is $500, hardly something that only professionals and major corporations can afford. **
I beg your pardon? The name doesn't matter? The first Apple was not a Mac. Please specify what, exactly, you are talking about. First Apple: 1977. First Mac: 1984 (or was it 83?)
As for building your own PC, I must say that mikee is right. Building a PC is really cheap. Mcuh cheaper than a Mac with the same specs. (Note I say same specs, meaning everything but processor. I won't even go into comparing processors, by MHz or otherwise.)
Originally posted by Soviet mikee: ** I was refering to NeXT. That moron spent $100,000 on the NeXT logo alone. He harrassed his employees and drove the company in which he started $7 million with into the ground, then got Apple to buy it instead of the smarter choice, BeInc. **
More interesting but false propaganda. NeXT was not "run into the ground" -- their WebObjects technology had the company posting several profitable quarters in a row right up to the purchase of NeXT by Apple.
As a developer who has worked extensively with both the BeOS, and OpenStep/NeXTSTEP, MacOS, MacOS X, etc. I can tell you that the BeOS was definitely not the right choice -- and it will continue to flounder in the market as it is doing now.
Beware of people with extremist opinions based on hyperbole, not experience or facts.
------------------ Andrew Welch / el Presidente / Ambrosia Software, Inc.
Originally posted by Obormot: ** But I think Mac OS X is cool. ("It's Mac OS on Viagra!" -me) Some of the interface changes though, like the single window, and the Dock, are quite undesirable. **
The single window is an option not a mandatory feature; the dock is actually quite usable in DP4.
Originally posted by andrew: **The single window is an option not a mandatory feature; the dock is actually quite usable in DP4.
Really? It's not a mandatory feature? Excellent. As for the dock... I'd rather have a taskbar, a la GoMac.
It is possible to custom-build even Macs, you know. You could even use a PC box! You just have to know where to look for the parts. Now, I will tell the truth, I don't know any places (off the top of my head) except IBM and Machspeed or something similar, but I do know that it IS possible!
I got this information from a Mac Addict Magazine.
BTW, Obormot, you're Russian? That's pretty cool! I know a few (and unfortuneatly that few means only about 5) words in Russian, such as yes, no, goodbye, thank you, etc. But it's better than none right?
Originally posted by Obormot: **Really? It's not a mandatory feature? Excellent. As for the dock... I'd rather have a taskbar, a la GoMac.
You'll have GoMac if you want -- the dock is just an application (dock.app). People will be able to author replacements -- I'm quite sure that you'll see GoMac (or the like) for OS X in short order.
Originally posted by Jude: **Yeah, but I think I'll wait and see. According to all the hype, it is getting rid of a lot of the features of the MAC OS I like:
being able to keep actual stuff on your desktop
Being able to download to the desktop
being able to use really old applications (and games) that aren't PowerMac native
the launcher (I use this all the time)
the control strip **
You can download to the desltop, you can use really old apps and games that aren't PowerMac native, you can keep actual stuff on your desktop, there is a Launcher-like Dock, and there are facilities for adding control strip like functionality (and much more) built into the OS.
Don't believe the hype; wait until the OS is released.
What's GoMac?
Wow, andrew. I must say, you have just boosted my confifence in Apple, and my excitement in OS X. Thanks for those helpful answers.
Phoenix, yes, I am Russian (by the American definition, anyway). Obormot is actually a Russian word. Have Slav tell you what it means
And GoMac is a cool utility which brings (a souped-up and Macified version of) the Windows taskbar and Start Menu to the Mac. It's currently Action GoMac, made by PowerOn.
If you want more confidence read this article in full
(url="http://"http://www.arstechnica.com/reviews/2q00/macos-x-dp4/macos-x-dp4-1.html")Click here(/url)
the first part tells a lot about bundles and shared libraries, and how there won't be any more conflicts. Ever have the problem when you install an app and it installs an older version of quicktime or game sprockets messing up other programs, well bundles stop this.
andrew stole my fire about the dock being an app, but it wasn't mine to begin with, like the 8th page in is a screen shot of the guy using applescript to quit the dock.
tell application dock.app quit end tell
If you are worried about remote security, just turn it off. (url="http://"http://www.arstechnica.com/reviews/2q00/macos-x-dp4/screen-monnet.html#Networking")screenshot(/url)
Printing is much simpler for the developer and the user.
Read the article, its long, but VERY informative.
Chamrin
Cool. Hope I can find it at Download.com...yep, found it! I'll just ask my dad what Obormot means. (He's a Cardiologist and has been interested in the Russian culture for a long time. My brothers and I are all named after former Russian Czars: Nikolai, Andrei and Alexei (Alexis, actually, but that's the Russian equivalent, right? ANyway, my dad has gone to Russia about 5 times now and speaks decent Russian. I Hope to learn someday, but don;t have the time as of now because of school (I am 16 will be a Junior next year))
THere's my background on myself!
Andrew, have you had a chance to use Cocoa? Is it really as easy and powerful as Apple has made it out to be?
Let me tell you some experiences from a simple user.
I've been a mac owner since 1992 - the first time I had enough money to buy one. I thought (and I think) that they're better machines than Windows-PCs (I owned one before).
But recently my cute Powerbook 1400 crashed. Hardware problems. A new mother board is relatively expensive, the machine is old (no G3 - no OS X, you see the problem of these frequent OS-changes) - so I decided to look after a new computer.
Then I run into the problem Soviet Mikee mentioned: I don't like iMacs - not the look, not the idea of an all-in-one-machine (I owned a Performa 5200 - terrible!). But here in Germany a new G4 costs ca. $2000 - without monitor, without CD-RW, without floppy disc, without printer.
So I looked after a used G3. There were only few, and they were expensive.
So I've bought, after eight years, a PC: Pentium III, 450 MHz, 128 MB RAM, 12 GB harddisk, with monitor, floppy disc, printer, CD-RW, DVD - for $1000.
I'm not really lucky, but it serves my purposes (recorded nice songs for a wedding party of a friend with a harddisc recording program - no crash) - and I think, there is a difference between $1000 and $2000+ - with a new OS ahead with unknown features, hardware requirements, software supply.
So you can see (to return to the original topic): Apples strategy and this threatening OS X were able to drive me away from my loved Macs. Is it really a good strategy?