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I think with the way many films and stories go today, it is very important to stay away from happy endings. So many crappy films these days do end up with everything (in the words of Homer Simpson) "Tied up in a neat little package".
The best stories are the ones that are not far fetched, not filled with villans, and have a tragic, yet acceptable ending.
Just look at the Kubriks - Kubrick quite often had an ending where everything worked out, but not in the all the good guys are happy sense - more, the characters managed to survive. Either that, or he has an ending where the character gets to have his say, but gets brought down in the process.
I quite enjoy a story where the main character goes through many troubles and then finds that everything doesn't work out in the end - like life. While an ending shouldn't be a sort of tragic Romeo and Juliet style ending, it should never be happy, and people shouldn't always get whats comming to them. It's always best to screw with the mind of an audience - while making sure not to piss them off.
------------------ The galaxy is about to become apocalyptic: (url="http://"http://3114.spyw.com")3114:A Nova TC(/url)
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Originally posted by thedecline: ** While an ending shouldn't be a sort of tragic Romeo and Juliet style ending, it should never be happy, and people shouldn't always get whats comming to them.
**
An ending should never be happy? Where did you get that idea? Sounds extreme. Because you like to compare to real life, remember that life endings are not always unhappy either.
------------------ I am eager to try to ansver mission questions
Originally posted by thedecline: **While an ending shouldn't be a sort of tragic Romeo and Juliet style ending, it should never be happy, and people shouldn't always get whats comming to them. It's always best to screw with the mind of an audience - while making sure not to piss them off.
True that people shouldn't always get whats coming to them, after all bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people. Still people sometimes DO get whats coming to them. Take the example of me and my ex-girlfriend Christie. We broke up because I found out she was cheating on me. So she got together properly with the other guy only to find out that he was cheating on her. She wound up with nobody and I got a new girlfriend. What goes around comes around, eh.
------------------ Hey! If I want cheesey poofs, I'll get cheesey poofs! -Eric Cartman Law Enforcer "Respect my Authorita!"
If you want to have that unhappy ending thing, build it like a Batman episode/comic.
You build your first part where everything goes to Hell in a Handbasket, and then the next part you have the character picking themselves up by their bootstraps and have the happy ending.
I watched the movie Brazil. At some point, I thought I was to the ending (the screen pans back) but I like to watch until the end of the credits just incase they had something funny in mind. But no, they intentionally had a dark and gloomy ending. :frown:
You've got to have Heroic movies/books/games. If every one of those had a realistic end where the bad guy kills the goodguy because that's how it is in real life, how gloomy would life be?
------------------ Ivanova: "I can only conclude that I am paying off karma at a vastly accelerated rate."
Originally posted by Vast Deathmaster: **If you want to have that unhappy ending thing, build it like a Batman episode/comic.
I don't know about everything being alright, but at least occaisonally coming to a point to where they can be proud of their decisions annd their actions. And dark and gloomy endings can be good, sometimes.
Just remember, the closer your story is to real life, the better it is. Remember, you're a professional liar. You tell lies to people for their enjoyment. And the closer you get to real life, the more they'll enjoy it.
But also remember that occaisonally, everybody enjoys a little fantasy roleplay...
------------------ Suddenly, the little scoutship disappeared and then reappeared right behind the alien warfleet. The gravitic ship's captain hailed the armada. "You are going to be destroyed, but I will give you a choice as to how you want to spend eternity: big pieces, little pieces, or quarks?" Dead silence. "Quarks it is, then."
spacecowboy, where did you get the incredulous idea that I hate the plug? I'm just being my (super)critical self! Sorry if I offended anyone.
~Ace
------------------ "There is simply nothing in life more worth doing than kicking ass for money." - J. S. Jordan, Mercenaries Guild
Originally posted by spacecowboy: **But does it? American storylines would end the way you describe, with the goodguy winning, and the badguy winding up dead/in jail. But the traditional Tragedy ends with the goodguy dead/in jail. Just remember that not all stories should have a happy ending.
Who said that the character was a good guy...?
--gav
------------------ Visit the (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/webboard/Forum10/HTML/005883.html#")Anglo-American Dictionary(/url), a well of priceless information!
Originally posted by simon: **Another option (something I've thought about doing) is to include another plugin which replaces all the "mature" content. That would give the use the choice of playing how the author intended it, or "family" version. **
I'm with simon, But I would also like to point out this.
Originally posted by Polycon v1.2 Readme: ===Changes in the new version -Coarse language related to some of the pers resources cleaned up.
Now I could be wrong, but they had to have some reason to do that.
------------------ A life, ohhhh, that a new plug-in right? "Borb II of V.S.S Hellfire."
I see what you mean - it is very easy to over the top with the unhappy endings, but other people can do the happy endings, I want everything to go to hell. I'm doing the unhappy endings.
Does anyone else remember the "Clavius and beyond" plug-in for EV? That came in two versions, one was the plug as it was intended to be, and one was a cleaned-up version, suitable for younger players. (I never found the "mature" version anywhere, so I can't say whether it was really that much different/better)
------------------ Do not adjust your mind - there is a fault in reality.
Originally posted by thedecline: **Just as a matter of interest I'd like to know what peoples view on mature content in plugs is?
Do you mind four letter words being used, for example in mission strings if it makes the story realistic. Do you mind various dark and dank activities like prostitution and drug trafficing taking place in plugs?
The majority of people who play escape velocity and its sequels would at least be over fifteen, so I don't think there is such an issue when it comes to protecting the younger generation, more just an argument of what is plesant in a game.
You have games like Soldier of Fortune 2 which are voilent beyond any real parameters (doom 2 is even disgustingly voilent), and voilence is obviously not a problem in EV, so can one make up for it by including other 'mature' things?
Whatever, just dont change it into some cheezey porn scene.
------------------ "Your pretty purty, girl." Taco taco, burito burito taco flavored kisses!
I dunno if you would call me mature, but mature content doesn't necessarily equal a good plugin. I get bothered by some "mature" content, such as what color the guy's blood is when it splurts all over himself.
As for unhappy endings- I saw a movie about a few charecters, each of whom had their own story. The whole plot was weird, but in the end, the woman was running away from her boyfriend (who was trying to cheer her up with the help of a friend of his), the guy had made absolutely no progress in his life, and the psychologist had gone deaf.
You might say that's a pretty unhappy ending, but: The psychologist had made a list of all the things he wanted to hear before he lost his hearing, and at the end he crossed the very last thing off. The mom found her 4 year-old girl, who got lost halfway through the movie.
I wouldn't mind an unhappy ending, as long as the charecters were able to live with themselves afterward. Otherwise, it's just depressing.
------------------ May those who love us, love us, and may those who don't love us, may God turn their hearts; and if He doesn't turn their hearts, may He turn their ankles, so we'll know them by their limping. (url="http://"http://www.evula.org/monster/")Monster Studios(/url) - (url="http://"http://www.evula.org/monster/studio/c.html")Caribbean(/url)
Originally posted by boot: Does anyone else remember the "Clavius and beyond" plug-in for EV? That came in two versions, one was the plug as it was intended to be, and one was a cleaned-up version, suitable for younger players. (I never found the "mature" version anywhere, so I can't say whether it was really that much different/better)
Here's a bit of an explanation of the story behind it, from the November 1997 issue of the Ambrosia Times:
Escape Velocity plug-in: Clavius and Beyond
My 8 year old son and I have been playing Clavius 2.0 - and have enjoyed it - with Mom's somewhat "oh please :-P" reaction to the "romance" with Astria and the many typos. So I downloaded Clavius 3.1, since there were new missions available. Fortunately, I started playing before I loaded it on my son's computer. I was upset at finding the nude Girls Set option and the reference to holographic sex in the bar on the new pirate planet. This is as far as I've gotten -- and the increased sexual overtones re Astria aren't welcome either. Obviously - this is not a version my son can play, or I want to play, and I'll have to explain to him that the makers of this plug-in didn't intend it for children (or thinking adults).
Guys - must you include sexual story lines and pictures in Escape Velocity? Wasn't it fun enough as it was? Not all players are men, and even if most are (I don't have a clue about the demographics here), many of them are also dads, (who will also be offended at having this material in a game children enjoyed) and MANY are children. We as an online community NEED to protect ALL children, at least, (and I'm assuming this decision to include nude pictures was just a really dumb decision by someone who doesn't have children) from exposure to sex as computer games. I resent the "women's bodies as entertainment to pass the time while going into hyperdrive" thinking as well.
For Ambrosia -- I think it's extremely poor judgement and bad taste to allow this material on the "official web site". I'm sure there are children who access this site on their own -- I included it in my child's list of favorite places last night before I played the plug-in - obviously, off it goes until I get some assurance that it's a safe place for children. I would appreciate your help in screening web-site material for sexual content.
-- Sharon
David spent a lot of time e-mailing with Sharon, and Thierry from DYNA Sytemes in Paris, about the content of the plug-in. As it turns out, Ambrosia did not have a screening process in place, and never caught the questionable material before the plug-in was posted. Due to differences in European and American cultures, Thierry did not realize that some parents on our side of the Atlantic might consider the material inappropriate for minors. Thierry and Sharon worked with each other to identify which parts of the plug-in might be harmful to children, and as a result, versions 3.2 and 3.2s were born. 3.2s, the "soft" version, will be placed on Ambrosia official websites. The "adult" version 3.2 is still available from DYNA Systemes in France. We're glad that all parties involved in this issue could come to an agreement without difficulty.
------------------ David Arthur (url="http://"http://davidarthur.evula.net/")davidarthur.evula.net(/url) | (url="http://"http://www.ev-nova.net/")EV-Nova.net(/url) | (url="http://"http://www.evula.com/survival_guide/")EV Nova Survival Guide(/url) Truth! Justice! Freedom! And A Hard-Boiled Egg!
Well, now we know where pretty much everybody's gonna go for Clavius...
Well... As a plug developer I would stay away from romance, one night stands and whores, well hay that is only natural to stick in.
No seriously, if you are going to have things like nudity and sexual references as well as drugs and swearing, a warning is really neccessary, but lets face it, if the story has got things like drug use and sex in it, that are an integral part, well, you can't get rid of it by releasing two versions, a soft and hardcore one - the soft version would be really lacking in elements it needed for the story to have an affect.
It would be like cutting all of the voilence and swearing from Pulp Fiction and then letting the kiddies watch it.
As for porno's, it's probably best to keep them on the internet and in nasty video stores and out of the plug-ins.
Just my thoughts and conclusions.
Originally posted by David Arthur:
snip
It may be from the November 1997 issue of the Ambrosia Times, but you pulled that right out of my post on the EV board!
------------------ I was disorientedly changing my body orientation in a clockwise direction while simulateously expressing my appreciation of mikee's humor and watching my posterior disconnect -- ElG7
(quote)Originally posted by Blackdog: **It may be from the November 1997 issue of the Ambrosia Times, but you pulled that right out of my post on the EV board!:)
------------------ David Arthur (url="http://"http://davidarthur.evula.net/")davidarthur.evula.net(/url) | (url="http://"http://www.ev-nova.net/")EV-Nova.net(/url) | (url="http://"http://www.evula.com/survival_guide/")EV Nova Survival Guide(/url) Truth! Justice! Freedom! And A Hard-Boiled Egg! **
Originally posted by David Arthur: **While it was your post that had recently reminded me of its existence, I actually went and copied it straight from the source - note the link in my copy.:)
Ah, that's about what I figured. It was amusing to read it again after five years. Sharon's complaint sealed and immortalized!
I think people have been saying this already, but sex/violence/drugs in a story do not make it "mature". Instead, they can limit your audience, and why would you want to do that? What makes a story mature is the viewpoint from which it apporaches these and other topics. Books like "The Maltese Falcon" have sex and violence in them, as well as heavy drinking, but the way they're written in doesn't emphasize them. I think it's a well known fact that people drink, have sex, take drugs, and kill, but the more hollywood-style approach you take, the more inaccurate and cheesy your plug-in will be. Over-the-top characters just aren't...as good.
Take the movie "13 conversations about one thing", for instance. The story doesn't allow you to totally hate even the more villianous characters, because of the depth and dimension given to them. Everybody is ultimately human , with both good and bad points of their own. It deals with things like crime on a level thats not so gritty as it is "heavy"--that is, it's hard to come away from it without any emotional impact whatsoever, and it has a wonderful mastery of subtlety I guess you'd have to see it to know what I mean, I don't think I'm articulating it all that well.
For romance, the more "maid in manhattan" you get, the more I'm likely to lose interest (and I'm sure I'm not the only one). And sex, well...if people want porn, they'll go look for porn. There are few "adult" things LESS mature than pornography, and the less cheesy, graphic, and pointless sex I see in games, the better.
Lastly, I think it's nonsense to think that, realistically, drugs and illegal substances aren't around in the future. Drug-tinged elements in your plot wouldn't be very far-fetched (depending on what you write, of course). Again, just try not to make it the theme or focus of the game. And if you haven't had much experience with these things, at least do some research first, else you risk unintentional "blooper" humor in parts that may be intended as more "heavy-handed". Just like how you want to eliminate a many typos and grammar errors as you can: You don't want to come off as a fool.
...Geeze, I hope that's all intelligible. Went for a bit of a ramble-trip there. {edit: speaking of typos...} ------------------ (url="http://"http://mailto:mk381@stu.aii.edu") - () () / }{ - (/url) (url="http://"http://www.pacifier.com/~kkey/shipyard/index.html")Onyx's EV Shipyard(/url)
(This message has been edited by Onyx (edited 04-21-2003).)
^What he said.^
I agree with absolutely positively everything in Onyx's post. Again, I just want to add that occaisonally having things go to pot is good, as well.
The final answer: the closer a story is to reality, the better it is. The closer a story is to reality, the more easily the player can 'fall into it', making for a better experience: the entire point behind a story is that the reader/player has an alternate reality into which they can disappear for a while. The easier they can make that transition, the better.