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I have absolutely nothing against ASW -- the company, its employees, and its contractors (eg ATMOS) have been unfailingly helpful and permissive in their dealings with the ASW webboards. I very much appreciate that they put their resources behind maintaining and promoting their boards.
That said, on a more philosophical level I like that ev-nova.net exists as an unofficial fan site, where the creators and purveyors of EVN can't delete or alter topics that might pose some slight risk to their profits or their legal status.
Again, it's not that I've seen Ambrosia do this or that they seem to be the kinds of guys who would. It's just that for-profit corporations are intrinsically under a different set of pressures from independent fans like EVula and the people who run the boards in his "Empire."
I also like having both ev-nova.net and the ASW boards around because the redundancy isn't always a bad thing -- if the people who run one board site get distracted for a few months by other things going on in their busy lives, hopefully the other board will be more active during the gap. Check out the FAQ pages at both sites -- I wasn't directly involved in making either of the FAQ collections, but they seem to be the kinds of things that might only grow when admin people are in an energetic mode.
While I have not been around much, or at all recently, I have failed to see any evidence of a slow death. Perhaps it is too slow for me to see it in my short time here. If it helps calm your fears, I have never considered using another board for developer questions, and only once for a game question. Everything I need is here. But I do know that any time I have any question, I can ask it. If it has been asked before, as long as it is not recent, it gets answered; both in great detail and with simple spoilers that are sometimes needed for early knowledge. I think something which would help is a 'best of'. This would be similar to an FAQ, but better. When a questioned is asked here, it tends to get answered first on a simple level. Then as more detailed information is needed, additional questions are asked with even more information given. I know of one topic I started concerning adding images to outfits. That question was quickly answered, but then I asked more questions and soon knew how to add images to anything. I still use the topic because it answers all questions I as a basic developer would have about graphics in plug-ins. Topics like this would be perfect for a 'best of' because it gives more knowledge as it is needed without needing to search through hundreds of topics.
When I first joined the ASW boards it seemed that there were many more regulars and more posting. I can perhaps see evidence.
I think the idea that the EVDC will die is an exaggeration. As long as Nova is played the EVDC will be alive. After a person download's Nova from ASW's site where do they go for help in the game? The Nova webboard. When they begin to get courious about how to make plugs for the game, they are sure to either notice the EV Developer's Corner in the drop down menu or have another person point them this way.
Thus as long as people are playing Nova and interested in learning how to develop for it, the EVDC will live.
Darth Bob: But again, mrxak's concern is with the drift of the regulars. New developers will always come here, true; but will those with the experience to help them still be here?
I don't really feel that alternative communities are a threat. It's part of the anarchic nature of the internet. Communities rise, communities die. Some of them are no more than public conversations, but all of them, including this one, are temporary. Remember the old EV Developer's email group? I was really gutted when it was cancelled, but by that time the EV and EVO Boards were growing. They grew, and changed, and became what we have today. The character of the community has shifted, and that creates space for other communities.
Why should it be a problem?
I for one will never leave the EVDC proper. I rather hope it doesnt die, I've been working on a fancy pet project Id like soneone to be here to see.
Sounds like Communism to me <_<
But seriously, I don't think you can blame other sites for taking developers away from this one. Speaking for myself, I found these forums and EV-Nova.net's at the same time and joined both. I came to each equally intitially, but nowadays I'm quite active at EV-Nova.net, and barely active at all here. Why? I didn't stop coming here because going to two sets of forums was too much work, but rather because I simply didn't like these forums enough to hang around. If it were not for the EV-Nova.net forums, I merely would have dropped out of the EV (Nova) community altogether. And thus, if it weren't for EV-Nova.net, there is extremely little chance that I would be here reading this today. Basically it comes down to this: if I liked these forums, I'd be active here, whether EV-Nova.net existed or not.
I would suggest looking closer to home for the root of this problem.
So far, it sounds like there has been concern expressed over the disconnected spread of knowledge and experience, several suggestions for systems to collect that knowledge (all of which acknowledge the problem with that is finding a way to maintain it), and people who like ev-nova.net and don't find it a threat.
I'd have to agree with the last point; as Techerakh pointed out, having some choice can be very beneficial. Don't like one place, find another you do. That can help the greater community grow.
It doesn't help the greater community grow if there and here don't connect at all, however. Techerakh, I have no idea what you talk about over on ev-nova.net since I don't go there.
In terms of development, perhaps developers should be encouraged to check both sites' forums. As for a collected pool of development knowledge, regardless of the system that's used, I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to find willing moderators for a knowledge database, if it's possible to find people willing to moderate forums already. Also, if a person has enough time to figure out how to do something in Nova, they'd probably have time to write up a blurb explaining it if they're asked to do so by aforementioned moderators. If they don't, someone else can try. The database could even have a list of experienced developers and where they can be found, if the people are willing to be put on the list.
To have all that be done on ASW's own servers and overseen (but not moderated on a day-to-day basis) by official ASW staff, however, sounds difficult to get implemented. ASW seems to be fairly busy overall, with the development of new products and general support for existing ones, as well as keeping these forums running. A typical example of this is how, back when the switch to IPB was made, I'm pretty sure they said they'd switch the colors eventually. Well, it's still white and blue. How would we convince them to set up a Wiki? Oh, and if you might suggest the forums be modified to support a different style of displaying threads, may I remind you that part of the reason the switch to IPB was done was because the old UBB had been so heavily modified (with, say, the old Image Gallery's code) that it became nearly impossible to upgrade it. Andrew is not willing to modify the forum code this time around.
Fan-run sites are not necessarily doomed to failure. Take bungie.org. Granted, Bungie doesn't provide such a collection of resources or place for discussion as ASW does (especially in the days before bungie.net) and so a bungie.org was necessary. Well, we may have a need that isn't being provided for here. All it needs are dedicated people. That's the hard part, but it may be more possible than it sounds. We already even have such dedicated moderators as mrxak, who says it is "(his) duty to help out however (he) can". We have the resources to integrate external projects as best we can (with sticky topics and so forth).
(edit) Also, take the example of the EV community and forums before it became integrated with ASW. It was 100% fan-run for quite some time, as far as I know.
I don't myself have the time or resources to participate in such a project as anything more than an occasional contributor of information or suggestions. I'll take up my power to do the latter, however, and say "let's get this organized, shall we?"
This post has been edited by Weepul 884 : 07 March 2005 - 12:37 PM
I have to say that mrxak has a very valid point regarding the satellite communities -- the EV forums have always been a focal point of the EV community, and while there have been some somewhat constructive spinoffs (the RPGs, for instance), making another forum just for the sake of adding an "alternative" takes away from the overall cohesiveness of the community, even if by a little (just the time spent by members on other boards).
Certainly it's not a huge deal now, and it may never grow to be, but I have to agree that these official boards have felt a noticeable drop in traffic recently, and I'd hate to see the community die.
Hudson, on Mar 6 2005, 12:25 PM, said:
I think it - what ever it is - should sit within the control of ASW. These things have been tried externally before. They tend to fail, like a custard rampart. View Post
Hmm, that's actually a very good point, if ASW is willing to put in the time and resources for this. I feel like a wiki would be the optimal way to get it done without lots of moderation, but it has the potential to fail horribly. Maybe some hybrid of a wiki and a web repository in the spirit of some of the developer-oriented sites out there? I don't know.
As for myself, I've always viewed the Developer's Corner as the heart of the plugin developing community. This is the only EV developers board I frequent, and the only one I look to about development questions.
I don't feel that the satellite boards are a threat simply because of that; they are satellites. Just as satellites need a center of gravity in reality, so do all these boards, and that center is the EV Developers Corner. Without it, the different boards would go careening off into oblivion, and the people would eventually come back to the EVDC.
Really, there isn't anything to be worried about. The EVDC will exist as long as folks bother to put out plugins for EV.
**I've been meaning to weigh in on this topic, but I've just now had the time to really sit down and think the whole issue through, and I've come to the conclusion that I think mrxak, while touching upon something that may be a threat to the community, is actually inadvertently serving to show what good shape the community actually is in.
To elaborate on my statement: For those few of us that have been around since the early days of EV/O (98 and earlier) seeing the community in this state is amazing and incredibly encouraging, because back then, when the webboards were in pieces and there was no set place for developers, the community, as it was, barely existed. There was no place to go to bounce off ideas or try to figure out game engine hacks, etc. It was much more an individual effort without any effective or organized peer groups, and contact between developers or teams was sporadic and mainly based around AIM or IRC. In other words, that we have this "problem" is actually a blessing in disguise. If anything, the community is suffering from it's success. I know this because if someone had told me way back then that one day we'd have such a large, solid community that it could support multiple offshoot groups from it and have those equally thrive, I never would have believed it.
I think (and always have) that the EVDC is one of the best places in the ASW forums.. I've never gone more than a few days without dropping in and not seeing a topic I found interesting or helpful. I am consistently blown away with the amount of knowledge, motivation and genuine interest in helping others that seems to reside in most of you here. The amount of talent and skills existing here today probably outweighs all of that which has come before in the development community, combined. And there have been some incredibly talented people that have come and gone.
Equally, it's just a cool place to come and relax, too. Read some ideas, suggest some new features, even get some feedback for your own work. Maybe there are some improvements we can make around here, and if so, I'd encourage people to voice those suggestions. The only thing I'm strongly opposed to is making this a personal advertising space, where every person and their cousin who is making a plug-in or even thinking about it starts a topic to discuss their progress, what they're doing, etc. If we all wanted to make some sort of "community journal" topic where people could post updates, ask for feedback, I'd be entirely supportive of something like that.
All that said, I might have agreed with mrxak about the community dying, back when EVN was released, because I'd originally thought that the graphics/data threshold was getting to high for even the most talented creators to work with. But instead, the community has only grown and become even more diverse and talented.. and I don't see that ending any time soon.
_bomb
**
Okay, here's my take: most of you are missing the one important thing that makes the net different to any other publishing medium -- hyperlinks. It is entirely possible to have multiple independent "cores" holding information (without duplication) that reference heavily back to one another. Whenever a piece of information is deemed vital, it is linked by the other cores. In some cases it might be so important that it gets mirrored.
The primary alternate cores to the EVDC are ev-nova.net and the Kontik Research Front. I respect the moderators and adminstrators of all these cores. I don't see their continued existance to be an issue; on the contrary, I think it is a strength.
I do, however, agree with mrxak that we need to organise. We need people to ferret out the information and link it up. This needs to happen on all three cores. This way, important info is available to all (and most of it should be mirrored here on EVDC, I feel), but the communities can maintain independence and their own feel.
Thoughts?
Well, for what it's worth, while my TC's board is hosted at ev-nova.net, which means I'm a frequent presence there, I've never even visited KRF (doesn't mean I won't, just means I haven't), and whenever I have a serious development question, I always come here for the answer.
pipeline, on Mar 8 2005, 05:02 AM, said:
Thoughts? View Post
I agree. I'd love to see each group assign a person or a couple of people to patrol the other major dev boards to make sure a neat idea doesn't get lost somewhere that people don't go as often.
I'd also like to see something set up that attempts to organize ideas and techniques in something other than a web board. Mainly because even though we have a search feature there are times where I know I'm looking for information on something but I don't know how exactly to say it, and thus a search is more or less useless. Something like a wiki thats broken up into categories and subcategories making it easy for someone to find information on what they are looking for would be neat.
pipeline: that doesn't resolve the biggest single issue - bulletin boards suck goat-balls at presenting useful data intelligently and in any kind of information architecture. Heavy hyper-linking between bulletin-boards, such as they are, will only serve to confuse things further.
raga: I think you just volunteered
Hudson, on Mar 9 2005, 01:01 AM, said:
pipeline: that doesn't resolve the biggest single issue - bulletin boards suck goat-balls at presenting useful data intelligently and in any kind of information architecture. Heavy hyper-linking between bulletin-boards, such as they are, will only serve to confuse things further. View Post
Actually, I disagree with your disagreement. A proper pinned topic that's a decent index to info would be just fine. That's why hyperlinking is so awesome -- the basic resources can be anywhere.
If necessary, the pinned topic can be an "index to other indices", introducing that extra layer of abstraction.
The challenge with trying to maintain any kind of list or archive is that someone interested enough in EV dev is going to have to stop developing to maintain it. I see a vicious cycle there- someone stops developing to maintain, gets tired of it alltogether, someone else has to be indoctrinated, stops dev, gets tired, etc.
pipeline, on Mar 8 2005, 04:22 PM, said:
A proper pinned topic that's a decent index to info would be just fine. That's why hyperlinking is so awesome -- the basic resources can be anywhere. View Post
Most of the people who are going to need the help presented in the easiest, most convienient form- people new to the development for Nova or EVO/C- are going to be the people the least likely to actually check a posted list. Look at how often we have people ask the same question here- but then again there probably aren't statistics on forum searches or people using the "All the links you'll ever need" topic..
That's about my only advocation of a website/wiki (what? what the hell is that? Guess I should read that topic more carefully.)- but for the website or any list to be useful the forum has to be a subset of the site, which I disagree with. Takes away from the community-ness of it. I have been reading the EVDC for ages, longer than I have been regestered to boot, and I would hate to see it go down.
This post has been edited by rmx256 : 08 March 2005 - 05:39 PM
rmx256, on Mar 8 2005, 05:27 PM, said:
The challenge with trying to maintain any kind of list or archive is that someone interested enough in EV dev is going to have to stop developing to maintain it. I see a vicious cycle there- someone stops developing to maintain, gets tired of it alltogether, someone else has to be indoctrinated, stops dev, gets tired, etc. View Post
This is why I prefer the idea of a wiki. Multiple SysOps and a community based effort to fill info will reduce the workload on any single person.