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Originally posted by Martin Turner: **Again, as a professional development issue, if you turn up to a future employer and say 'I released a shareware game and it netted $2000 in the first two years', it's very different from turning up and saying 'I released a freeware game and loads of people downloaded but I don't know if any of them actually liked it'.
**
Just do not be unrealistic with yourself - I highly doubt (based in part on my efforts to market EVONE) that a shareware plugin could net that much money in that timeframe. A plugin will have no inherent copy protection and thus all but the most loyal/honorable players will avoid paying the fee. Also remember that the majority of the people who will be playing the plug will be relatively young, so $15 may end up being a significant sum for them, and even if it is not, you have to worry about how they are going to pay you.
You don't want people to start warezing EV plugins
I do want to make it clear, though, that I completely agree with you in your point that plugins take a lot of work and, sometimes, funding.
------------------ (url="http://"http://www.ariossoftware.com")Arios SoftWare(/url) (url="http://"http://www.ariossoftware.com/products/evone/")EVONE 1.0pb2 - the plugin editor for EV/EVO/EVN(/url)
I don't think i would pay for a scen myself, seeing as i am tight on cash and there would be too many to choose from if everyone started doing this.
However, if they were by donation, and i saw a good one i would probably donate maybe 5 or 10 bux to show my appriciation.
If i made a TC, i would definitely have a paypal donation link or somthing in the readme, just incase anyone wants to donate.
------------------ (url="http://"http://forums.tildesoft.com")Oblivion:(/url) An upcoming TC for EV:N I am also known as Demon1s and Vortex
...you most likely will have problems controlling the distribution of your plug-in: one person who purchased a 'full version' could simply stick it on-line and allow other people to DL it for free. It's not very charitable, but it will almost assuredly happen.
...plugin will have no inherent copy protection and thus all but the most loyal/honorable players will avoid paying the fee....You don't want people to start warezing EV plugins.
My point stands: this is the single largest obstacle to making a plug-in shareware, and it is for all intents and purposes, insurmountable. Unless you convinced Ambrosia to create your own, proprietary, encrypted format for a plug-in, readable by the EVN application itself, and specific from computer to computer, it simply will not work. My sympathy goes out to those who feel that they should receive money for their work; I would gladly pay for something with a storyline caliber comparable to Frozen Heart or Femme Fatale, but it's simply impractical.
Until you get an encrypted format, donationware is still the (infinitely) more workable option.
------------------ (url="http://"http://www.geocities.com/ue_rd")Fatal Alliance- an upcoming quasi-TC for EVN.(/url) Secret Project: Nearing Completion. (No links available) Visit the (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/cgi-bin/ubb/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&number;=20&SUBMIT;=Go")Chronicles(/url) today! Be sure to read the short story ' (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/cgi-bin/ubb/newsdisplay.cgi?action=topics &number;=20&forum;=*EV/EVO+chronicles&DaysPrune;=100&article;=000262&startpoint;=")Fiery Descent(/url)'! (url="http://"http://forums.tildesoft.com")Oblivion:(/url) An upcoming TC for EV:N
Maybe.
The point is that if someone has actually made some money, even if it's only $200 not $2,000, it's something that has a meaning to an employer in the way in which 'I made a free game' doesn't.
Don't get me wrong here - there was a move to go shareware on plugins in '98. At that time, I released Frozen Heart as freeware because I wanted the maximum number of people to play it. Based on advice I had from the old EV Discussion List, I figured that the maximum number of people who wanted to download and play an 11MB plugin from an unknown developer was about 100.
I don't regret the decision to release it as freeware - but I do support anyone who is actually going to complete a big, high quality plugin who believes that their time is worth money.
------------------ M A R T I N • T U R N E R (url="http://"http://www.AmbrosiaSW.com/cgi-bin/vftp/show.pl?product=evo&category;=plugins&display;=downloads&file;=FrozenHeart104.sit.bin")Frozen Heart(/url) (url="http://"http://www.AmbrosiaSW.com/cgi-bin/vftp/show.pl?product=evo&category;=plugins&display;=downloads&file;=FemmeFatale.sea.bin")Femme Fatale(/url) (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/cgi-bin/vftp/dl-redirect.pl?path=evo/plugins&file;=Frozen Heart - the No.hqx")Frozen Heart - the Novel(/url)
Originally posted by Martin Turner: **The point is that if someone has actually made some money, even if it's only $200 not $2,000, it's something that has a meaning to an employer in the way in which 'I made a free game' doesn't.
That's indisputable, but are EV plugins really the correct market for that? If you want to move in the direction of acquiring talents marketable to an employer, should you not consider moving more towards programming and less towards scripting (unless, of course, you are looking to sell your storyline/creativity aspects to an employer and not the technical aspects). It depends what you want to show off to the employer, but if you are looking at focusing on your ability to create a marketable, not-free, product, I would definitely look into programming/application development (or any other field of your choice, that being the most similar) instead of the development of addons to a shareware game.
Remember that my views are from the perspective of a Mac programmer who learned to program after developing an EV plugin
I personally think that donationware is the best idea to go with at first, after that you could also try making a few good games of your own.
So basicly I would pay for a very good plugin (ie at least as good as EVN) but the max I would pay would be about $15 NZD so around 5-10 USD.
-Infinite
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At the moment, I believe plug-ins should be donation-ware. Mainly, because due to my current situation I cant buy stuff over the web. BUt that will change come january 20th so, ask me again later. Cheers, Si
------------------ "If I were a younger man, I would write a history of human stupidity; and I would climb to the top of Mount Mcabe and lie down on my back with my history as a pillow; and I would take from the ground some of the blue-white poison that makes statues of men; and I would make a statue of myself, lying on my back, grinning horribly, and thuimbing my nose at You Know Who." - Final Sentance on the Books of Bokonon (url="http://"http://tru7h.jonpearse.net/scifi.php")The Women of SF Archive(/url)
Originally posted by Martin Turner: **Who is in favour of shareware plugins?
Would you download one and play it?
Would you pay if the software just nagged you? Would you pay if only the read me nagged you?
How much would be reasonable?
Geez... Something like that would have to be a second Frozen Heart of Femme Fatale to get my money. If people started charging money, I'd just make do with what I have. Make my own plugs for free... Maybe I'm just being a money miser, but I think that something like this would hurt the EV community, and Ambrosia in general more than help at all.
~Dimpfinator
------------------
Originally posted by UncleTwitchy: **I will never ask for any money, nor will I accept donations for SFA. However, for my next project I will be more than happy to accept donations.
While I am of the opinion that donations should be given if the plugin is good enough, I don't think any developer (well I wouldn't at any rate) actually ask people to give them money for their plug. Its just not the reason they were made. The last thing we want is to wind up with a pay-per-play series of plugins. It would undermine the EV community. And Martin, if the plugin was donation-ware and your employer asked about your programming background I think it would be far more satisfying to say "I made a freeware plugin for a game and made $2000 in two years from donations because people enjoyed it so much!' Then "I made a shareware plugin for a game and made $2000 in two years from registration fees from people who may or may not have enjoyed the finished product."
Just my ideas though -Starbridge42
------------------ Hey! If I want cheesey poofs, I'll get cheesey poofs! -Eric Cartman Law Enforcer "Respect my Authorita!"
The term 'EV Nova' in and of itself is a trademark of Ambrosia. Using that term, (whether explicit or implied), on a third party product would first require the written approval of Ambrosia. You'd first need a licensing agreement. This applies to anything that could be sold; plug-ins, t-shirts, hats, posters, whatever. Just like you couldn't (legally) sell a product that said 'Star Wars' on it without first getting the approval of Lucasfilm. Maybe Ambrosia would be willing to sign off on licensing agreements for plug developers, but chances are they might not want the headache from reading through (possibly) dozens of requests. It might just open up a can of worms that they don't want to deal with.
Donationware, or tipping, seems the most likely way to go.
Exactly, and my point was that I would not ever ask for nor would I accept money in any way, shape, or form for Starfleet Adventures because I'm already in violation of the Star Trek trademark -- at this point, the worst I could expect to receive from Paramount would be a cease-and-desist order. If I actually took money, I would be liable for more serious legal action -- something I wish to avoid at all cost.
However, when I work on my original project, while I won't actually ask for money for it, I will happily accept donations for it. And if Martin decides to make the Nova-ized Frozen Heart/Femme Fatale donationware, I'll happily pony up some dough for it.
------------------ Starfleet Adventures: A Star Trek TC for EVN (url="http://"http://www.ev-nova.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=145") Discussion Board (/url) Starfleet Adventures (url="http://"http://www.ev-nova.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=71")Progress Log(/url) denki's Starfleet Adventures (url="http://"http://www.geocities.com/starfleet_adventures/")FAQ page(/url) It is better to feed the goat than it is today.
Quote: The term 'EV Nova' in and of itself is a trademark of Ambrosia. Using that term, (whether explicit or implied), on a third party product would first require the written approval of Ambrosia.
No, I'm afraid this is incorrect.
For a full discussion, see (url="http://"http://www.intellectual-property.gov.uk/")http://www.intellect...roperty.gov.uk/(/url). This is a UK site, but the agreements are international, and the site links appropriately to the various international bodies.
Ownership of a trademark does not prevent someone else from discussing your product by its name, or from claiming that their product is compatible with your product.
What it does prevent someone from doing is passing off their product as your product, or claiming endorsement or association, or trying to selling identical services using your trademark or one sufficiently similar to cause confusion to the public.
There are, for example, zillions of shareware products out there for the Mac OS, but nobody is required to get approval from Apple in order to release them, even though Mac OS is a trademark. However, if you were to release a rival OS and call it Moc OS, and use a graphical representation similar to Apple's, you would find yourself in trouble.
In fact, Apple itself is in trouble now because an earlier agreement with Apple (the company formed by the Beatles) stated that Apple (computer) would not provide music services, and Apple (music) are now claiming that Apple (computer) are doing just that with the iTunes site. In this case, the issue is one of pre-existing contract which is more enforceable than Trademark, however, the principle is the same: selling of identical services (ie, music distribution) using a pre-registered trademark.
Infringement of trademark is not dependent on remuneration — the Star Wars plugins are technically illegal, but Lucasfilms have not pursued them very hard. On the other hand, early Star Trek plugins had to be pulled because the owners of the Star Trek franchise complained - even though no money was changing hands.
It would be acceptable to commercially market your plugin shrink-wrapped on supermarket shares for $300, provided that you did not explicitly or implicitly make the claim that your product was endorsed by Ambrosia or an official accompaniment to EV Nova. If you decided to include a copy of Nova in your package, you would have to make it very clear that additional monies were payable to Ambrosia, that by buying your software the purchaser was not purchasing a copy of Nova, and that the Nova software was included for convenience only. Even then, you would need to check the Nova licence carefully.
On the other hand, if you were to then go on and create your own game engine which was functionally similar to Nova and market it as EV Nuovo, you would probably find Ambrosia's lawyers on you pretty sharply.
They would not necessarily win. Some of us will remember a Playstation emulator of MacOS which was very popular a couple of years ago. The makers were able to demonstrate that they had not reverse engineered Playstation hardware, and the fact that they claimed it was compatible with Playstation games, while acknowledging that they did not own the Playstation Trademark, was seen as not being a breach of TradeMark. I forget how the whole thing ended, but I think that Sony may have actually bought the product up.
Having been professionally on both sides of TradeMark disputes, I would humbly suggest that it's worth checking the law carefully before posting advice about it on these boards — and even then you can still be wrong.
(This message has been edited by Martin Turner (edited 11-02-2003).)
Originally posted by Martin Turner: **They would not necessarily win. Some of us will remember a Playstation emulator of MacOS which was very popular a couple of years ago. The makers were able to demonstrate that they had not reverse engineered Playstation hardware, and the fact that they claimed it was compatible with Playstation games, while acknowledging that they did not own the Playstation Trademark, was seen as not being a breach of TradeMark. I forget how the whole thing ended, but I think that Sony may have actually bought the product up. **
Sadly they did buy it, and nothing has been heard of it since....
------------------ http://www.cdrwerks.com Home of the EVula Plug.
Such is life.
Commercially, it's usually cheaper to buy something out than to try to bury it legally.
By the time I got round to thinking about getting it, PS ones were so cheap they were almost giving them away, and the games I wanted were higher resolution on Mac or PC than they were on PS one.
You're talking about Virtual Game Station by Connetix. And yeah, Sony ended up just buying the product from Connetix, and they shelved it- recalled it from stores, stopped supporting it, and never mentioned it ever again. It was cool while it lasted though. Swept under the rug.
------------------ ~Charlie Sephil Saga Homepage: (url="http://"http://www.cwssoftware.com")www.cwssoftware.com(/url)
Originally posted by Martin Turner: Infringement of trademark is not dependent on remuneration — the Star Wars plugins are technically illegal, but Lucasfilms have not pursued them very hard. On the other hand, early Star Trek plugins had to be pulled because the owners of the Star Trek franchise complained - even though no money was changing hands.
Hoo boy. I hope UncleTwitchy has done some web research and found some good precedents that encourage him to believe that he will be able to release Starfleet Adventures. He's obviously put a lot of work into it. It would be a shame if his fan homage was killed by the lawyers of the people he's honoring.
"Donationware" with a "free reward" for donating still appeals to me. When you get a donation, you email the person a small plug -- maybe < 30k. To my mind at least, the transaction wouldn't seem like just a semantic spin on a sale if the reward plug just added small "bonus" misns, a "thank you" planet, or some such -- the software equivalents of plastic trinkets. That might not trigger a ban from the add-ons page if Ambrosia is serious about forbidding sale of plug-ins.
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(This message has been edited by Dr. Trowel (edited 11-02-2003).)
Originally posted by Dimpfinator: **Geez... Something like that would have to be a second Frozen Heart of Femme Fatale to get my money. If people started charging money, I'd just make do with what I have. Make my own plugs for free... Maybe I'm just being a money miser, but I think that something like this would hurt the EV community, and Ambrosia in general more than help at all.
He is making FH2, or last I heard he was...
Originally posted by Infinate: **He is making FH2, or last I heard he was...
(NOTE TO MARTIN: if any of this information is incorrect, I apologize for misunderstanding)
Yeah. I think it's supposed to be a cross between FH and FF or something like that.
He's making it for Nova, of course. Last I heard from him about it was that it was about 90% done, but not to get too excited because that last 10% will take a lot longer than the first 50%.
Martin: Just out of curiosity...where does it stand as of now?
------------------ The programmer's code of entomology: there's always another bug.
When Martin said he would do FH and FF for nova, I was very excited. If Martin, as he said, has doubts about finishing the plug, I would think it is absolutely right to make it shareware. If that is what recognition and payoff he wants from doing the work and making the plug, I think we should offer him it.
------------------ (url="http://"http://ulrik.no-ip.org")ulrik.no-ip.org(/url) I hope that a future EV Nova will hold the gövt-switch set expression, working like Wxxxyyy: hereby treat and let behave what belongs to gövt xxx as if it belonged to gövt yyy. This is the small tool we lack to build a believable scenario without unrelaistic amounts of resources and work.
Originally posted by Dr. Trowel: Hoo boy. I hope UncleTwitchy has done some web research and found some good precedents that encourage him to believe that he will be able to release Starfleet Adventures. He's obviously put a lot of work into it. It would be a shame if his fan homage was killed by the lawyers of the people he's honoring.
Well, yes and no -- if Paramount shut me down, it would be more of a shame for those fans of Star Trek who've wanted a Star Trek TC for the Escape Velocity family in general and Nova in particular than it would be for me. My reasons for making SFA were purely selfish and not entirely spurred on by a challenge.
See, I made SFA to teach myself how to make a TC for Nova. The Star Trek universe was just a by-product of someone pissing me off.
See, back when Nova was still in the beta test phase, there was talk of a bunch of TC projects, and one of them was a Star Trek TC set in the TNG era. They were using Trenent Tye's graphics, had a website and webboard, and all these grandiose plans. I had used EVO Developer's Map to create what I thought was a closer-to-canon map of the Trek universe for the old Trenent Tye EVO plug that I offered up to those guys. When I told the head of that project that I wasn't really interested in working with them beyond offering up the map because I was more interested in the original series and that I wanted to work on another project, the guy basically got really snotty with me and told me that I'd fail, that only teams finish plugs, that solo efforts never succeed, that only their Star Trek project would ever succeed, etc. etc.
Well, I'm enough of a Scorpio that the guy's attitude made me want to prove him wrong -- and made me want to do it badly.
However, for the most part, I've gotten what I wanted to get out of SFA -- a harcore lesson in how to make a TC. So, if, upon release, Paramount slaps a cease-and-desist, it won't be that big of a deal to me.