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Hi Everybody
This is my first BBS posting ever, so if I do anything rude let me know.
Some of you have suggested that players on the EVMP be allowed to create missions for other players. "That is too complicated!" the programmers say. However, it could be easily allowed by making it possible for one player to transfer money and goods to another player. Let's say that Argathus the Orangutang Pirate wants Samuel the Simian Celery Seller to hunt down Balinell the Birdlike Singer. Here is what would transpire between our two primate plotters:
Argathus hails the Celery Seller from his Argosy.
"Ho there, fail Seller of Celeries. I have for you a deed to do, and there is a fair reward for he who does it. I have long harbored hatred for a certain Singer, and his last deeds force me to let my animosity out onto sea. Not two days ago he attacked my fellow pirates in their lair, and slew all save myself."
Samuel replies from the seat of his Rapier.
"Aye, truly thou art wronged. What wouldst thou have me do? Already I sympathize with thy cause; tell me that you wish my rockets shot to serve you in revenge."
Argie says:
"I hoped that you would say as much. I wish for you to kill Balinell the Bird-like Singer. Slay him in his lair, the fifth asteroid in the Fairies Mining Belt. I trust thou knowest what ship he sails?"
Samuel
"That I do. His golden corvette is famed throughout the seventh sector. Its gleaming hull shall perish ere the week is out. However, as is ever the case with our kind, I am low on monies. Money I shall need if I am to buy the rockets to slay your foe. What can you give me today? And what do you promise for the destruction of our common enemy?"
Argathus is well off (as is Sam, actually) but would like to hold on to his cash until the Bird has been killed. However, he has with him a pair of rockets and eleven tons of tritium. He offers these to Samuel. Samuel accepts these and twenty-five hundred credits. Argathus promises twenty thousand credits for killing Balinell. As the two friends say agree on a meeting place, Argathus clicks the 'Transfer Stuff to Somebody' Button, selects the tritium, the rockets, and the credits, and targets Sammy. He clicks 'Okay' and the goods go to the Salesman.
"God be wi' ye." says Argathus. They are to meet in orbit around Tosharon.
In a few days, the two friends are again together. Argathus has been probing about to learn of Sammy's progress: he has talked with ships who have seen Sammy on the way to Fairy. The clincher comes from a feighter captain who saw Balinell get blasted to shimthereens over Adonicus.
Argie gives Samuel the credits and our heroes part as friends. Of course, Argathus could have stiffed Sammy. He could simply refuse to pay. And Samuel could have struck a deal with the freighter. But if that sort of thing ever got around...
You see how it works? It is rather complicated, I know; but it eases the programming. The creating a mission business is eliminated, and the opportunites for intrigue are geometrically increased. Administrators or game masters could post missions in bars, as could players; but the administrators could create missions that would be handled by the computer. This would ease their task, because then they wouldn't have to haggle about checking up.
I have some ideas about physics, ship design and weapons; but this post is far too long already. I'll only note that Balinell's golden corvette is the only gold corvette out there.
I hope that my dialogue was penetrable.
------------------ JasonDDusek
Trying to collate the ideas on this thread into a more managable chunk, incororating some of the more different ideas.
Server Ideas
- 2d map, unwrapped - game space defined to be around three to four days of travel via "normal" propulsion - Server keeps track of all local positions of ships - seperate "portside" interface so those functions (such as chat and character management) are handled on a different server from the 2d environment server - Server keeps track/manages non player controlled ship movement and weapons - Data from client will include character ID and ship type, velocity vector, types of weapons fired (initial lanuch vector, intended target character ID, multiplicity, time of weapon destruction), ship status (shield/armor level), local sensor range, targeted ship character ID - Data to be received by client includes character ID and ship types of all ships in local sensor range (ships in range determined by server, id only, ship type only for generation of sprite on screen if visusal range)(indication if targeted by any ships in range)., incoming weapons data (weapon ID for creation of visual sprite if visual range, multiplicity, vector, time to weapon destruction). If ship is targeting another character, it will be receiving the targeted ship status data as well - Logout point for game is at ports only (note, if rescued while in escape pod, then log out anytime, login at 1st port with shipyard your rescuer visits) - Ship mode chat available via single key toggle (to be mapped to ESC, tab, control, option, command, or a function key only) which requires typing in character username or direct number ID (selecting characters to speak to via mouse only for those ships in visual range to bypasses chracter ID entry) - Server is a single star system (or to be technical, a single large deepspace expanse if there is a server situatated in a nebula gas cloud) containing at least 1024 sepearate destinations/logout points, and other places to visit and get out of ship mode, but cannot logout - implimentation for the player to choose amount of money, fuel, cargo, missions, outfits to transfer to another player (allowed only in visual range with two ships docked(reuse of boarding command)) - If connection is dropped, player will restart from last logout position, with stuff aquired more recently than that (will require server to monitor all things aquired in ship mode and record in character database - Have a set number of players allowed on the server anytime, and everybody else must fight for open slots to play on a server (if hyperjumping and next server full, get dumped back at original server with some nice in game dialog like intererference in hyperspace)
client - continuous 2d grid refence as a ticker on screen - ship mode screen contains ship shield/armor status, fuel status, energy status, display of ship being targeted/identified (red indicator to indicate targeting), radar display with ships currently seen (not necessarily all ships in your radar radius) with appropriate colors for ships targeting you, computer escorts, defense fighters, ports, ships currently allied with you with common mission(s) - possibility of an all text client to reduce load on client computer, though implimentation is tricky.
Outfits - internal security system to fend off boarders - defense outfits that intercept missiles/physical attacks by firing lasers (or guns) that will tied into weapons action and vector info of incoming weapons. These are the only direct beam weapons, and only the player sees his own defense lasers, others don't - sensor radius determined by quality of add on sensor package (all ships come with default standard, better with high quality ships) - stealth coatings reduce signatures/ detection radius - IFF sensor only works if IFF transponder activated on other ship (toggled by single key) - Mass sensor gives approximate size classifications by making radar targets bigger - afterburner makes bigger engine plume sprite - Not all ships come with hyperjump standard, not all can equip, due to size limitations, and can always get rid of it for space - Mass expansions by extending ship length outfit possible, but limited based on ship type (possibility of channging ship sprite to reflect this) - cargo is carried in cargo bays on ships, and such bays are outfits to be removed at the players convienence, except for a minimum cargo allotment that can never be removed (necessary to keep player from getting into a bind money or mission wise) - ship internal equipment space is a set size, only altered by outfits. all equipment space is common (weapons shares with cargo and payload) - can load weapon launcher payloads in sets by the (one, two three, four and five) ton, or can get a module that packs in more for a given weight (reloading in the shipyard refills those modules first before cutting into ship space by set weight) - external fuel pods take no space, but limited in total number - internal fuel expansion cuts into space - can buy energy modules to increase weapons power and shield power, limited by space -shield recharger uses other engine energy(no affect on ship), limited in number -shield supercharger cuts into engine power, reduces movement performance -shield energy redirector puts loads on shield directly into energy modules (cuts damage by set persentage) - photonic rechrager, recharges via sun, only works in certain distances from sun - primary weapons slots are limited by ship type, though largely it is a give and take situation. - primary weapons fire centerline, can track a small arc, or are 360. All are repeated shots, no direct beam weaponry. Rearward firing weapons slots are seperate and their total is a fraction of primary slots. They only fire on a target if within their arc (so no firendly fire incidents). Some weapons may occupy both a primary and rearward slot If energy weapon, rate of fire also limited by energy capacity - secondary weapons are unlimited in number by launcher type or payload, except for equipment room total (can have sixty launchers if you want, but five torpedos only). Also, no direct beam weaponry. Decoy launchers fire rearward, most other launchers fire forwards or all around. - external clamps for fighers take no space - all outfits weigh mass, add to mass of ship, so a fully outfitted ship is sometimes slower - fuel scoop only works when you are not targeting someone - engine enhancements are as follows, energy output upgrade takes space but ups speed/accel, additional engines limited by ship type (maybe a sprite to reflect change) and add speed/accel/power and don't take more space(external) but ship now uses more fuel, RCS upgrades take space but don't cut into anything else - Other upgrades include structure optimization (set price, barely increases space size, cuts ship mass, but must redo everytime an internal outfit is addeto get full benefit, very expensive), energy optimization (same as structure, better energy recharge and capacity, must redo after energy upgrades or energy weapons changes to get full benefit), engine optimization(boost RCS/speed/accel, boosts energy recharge and capacity, reduces fuel consumption, reduces mass, most expensive, must be done after any changes to energy systems or engine systems), note that ship mass cuts increase ship performance - mass reductions, cuts ship mass structural(no space gain, armor weakened), cut ship mass energy(get rid of safeties, quicker destruction after being disabled), cut ship mass engine (same as energy) - saolar sail, helps speed when going away from sun, hurts speed when approaching sun
other notes - if caught in blast radius of weapon destruction, take damage - Really large character ships can carry other character's small ships, as a mission (details of how to implement this are a little sketchy). This would typically be used to carry hyperjump incapable ships to other servers. Probably a variation of the dock/board command set - there is a small amount of gravitation towards ports, and away from the sun - 2d edge is elastic to through players back towards map center. also, no computer ships pass this point either - Planets/asteroids/moons move around, so destinations recorded in autopilot will know new postion based on orbit around sun. If you go somewhere and land, you sometimes have option to load orbit of the port (if people at destination aren't nice(ie don't enable you receive orbit data)) then it's a onetime destination (you would be given rough grid reference at a certain time index, and need to be there and scan for nearby ports). In the future, if you prove yourselfin a mission of some sort, that data would become available to you. You could record you're grid reference, but unless you know how the orbit geometry mechanics of the game works, you ain't ever finding this place again unless you follow someone (doesn't work if a hyperspace jump) - Being diabled exposes you to boarding and all that may entail. - your sensors will pick up a port within 10 sensor radii if it isn't prerecorded in autopilot (will show up in autopilot list of nearest ports when toggling though it) - autopliot will list nearest ports (known and unknown) within 10 sensor radii. To get to a farther port or to a grid reference, enter map mode to pick a destination from the picture or to manually enter a grid number. This destination will be available to the autopilot via another key toggle - autopilot function will need to be a little more adavanced than it is in EV/EVO
player limitations - can't go really near sun, or you get damaged - afterburner speed doesn't slow down after afterburner is turned off, until you make a course change(with resulting velocity vector change) - normal propulsion uses small amounts of fuel, afterburner uses a fair bit, hyperjumps(local) use a lot and interserver hyperjumps use more. these should probably be proportional to ship mass. - Energy weapons can only be fired as long as there is available energy (weapons use reduces it, engine recharges it.
Missions - No GM per say, but mission ideas can be submitted, and the admin/maintainer can implement -A number of tramp cargo run missions, debris destruction, trash hauling, and other mundane and low paying missions should almost always be available - There should be a number of government mission threads that after completion, allow you access to new types of outfits/ships at appropriate shipyards. Mission design will have to be done in such a way as to lend itself to being given to hundreds of people, and everyone finding out how to complete a particular mission before they take it. - There should be the ability to be on several missions at once (more than 40 at a minimum). - There should be support of of never ending missions that provide you something good, or always bring you money
I know I am forgetting some of the ideas posted earlier, so my apologies, for it is late where I am and I am tired. Does this seem like a workable scheme to you folks? Any glaring holes are points of improvement? Also, for reference, as someone noted earlier I am adding a more strategic aspect to traditional EV play by my suggestions, ideas, and collations of other people's ideas and as such this scheme is oriented towards that, thus some people may interpret this as having problems, though it may be due to their viewing of EVMP by a more battle oriented or trading oriented aspect, so please voice your thoughts with that consideration in mind.
I personally think that EVMP should really focus on player interaction - like Newbie says here and I have said before, missions should be in a bulletin board/email type system, where both players and govt controllers could post and send missions. Thus, no mission bits and no complications with players getting missions that others want, and plenty of freedom.
Ships - more or less the same. There isn't much to fix, though a few new features could be useful. Same with outfits - except that with special tech, govt leaders could decide who to give it to.
As always, I still have my complete interface for EVMP hidden away, but no one seems to seriously be interested in it.
------------------ I claim my First Amendment rights to express myself through the use of high explosives.
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ColdFusion wrote: **As always, I still have my complete interface for EVMP hidden away, but no one seems to seriously be interested in it. **
You've got my interest... If you don't mind sharing it, you can email me at kberg@sfu.ca. I've got a MASSIVE data structures assignment due today, and another hardware engineering assignment due wednesday, then finals after that... :frown: So it may be awhile before I can respond to your email though. It would be very beneficial to have a set, final interface now, in the early stages of development rather then later trying to hack everything around to accomodate unforseen features that weren't originally accounted for. So if there's a anything that I like in your interface, I'll definately add it into my designs.
------------------
My only problem in this EVMP scheme is that I don't see the interest. What, exactly, makes this game exciting and fun? And, for a software company, the most important question is: why would people buy this? There's certainly a combat aspect, but most people who've been discussing these ideas seem to feel that should not be the focus of the game. Will it be a role-playing game? If so, what will distinguish it from other successful role playing games? Will there be strategy involved? If so, what will give the players incentives to change the universe? While technical questions are very important, it seems to me that they're irrelevant unless there's an exciting game concept behind them. In my opinion, just saying that the game will be a multi-player version of EV/O is not enough, because the game play will change significantly when it become massively multiplayer.
Although i don't have many answers, I think the key to developing an interesting game play concept is to look at what made EV/O great and to try to think about how those characteristics will translate into an EVMP. One thing that makes EV/O interesting and unusual is the way it combines the characteristics of a number of different genres. You might call EV/O arcade games with plot, text based adventures with graphics, or even a new variant on the role playing game. MacWorld lists the positive aspects of the game: "Excellent high-speed action; unique mission-driven story lines." So how do you bring all of these aspects in a multiplayer game? As far as action goes, I would be happy to see a more sophisticated combat environment, like the one in Ares.
Another thing reviewers mention is the non-linearity. That's a given in a massively multi-player game. But perhaps an unusual path to take, something to experiment with, would be to go in the opposite direction and limit that non-linearity a bit. This would give players a common experience, and structure the experience a little. I'm not thinking of anything too specific as I write this, but I can give an example. If every player were assigned a small spöb, a large asteroid for instance, when s/he entered the game, many pilots would spend a lot of their time in the beginning of the game defending, improving, and politically advancing their property. The object could yield tax revenue or mining revenue or something, thus giving players an incentive to hold onto their spobs and perhaps improve their money yield. Players might try to take over other's spöbs as a way of earning money, they might align themselves with governments or form alliances to protect their investments, or they might abandon this system all together and go for the lucrative but dangerous life of a free-lancer. I don't think that this particular example is terribly faithful to the feel of EV, but it's an example of a simple (conceptually simple) element of the game that would direct players' experiences.
One of the aspects of EV/O that I found most exciting was feeling like I was contributing to the large-scale politics of the universe. So I suggest that EVMP have a long-term arc, a political tendancy, like that of EV/O. Maybe EV-like conflict between two opposing sides. Over the course of a few months, the balence of power could tip back and forth, and players could contribute to that.
Also, I liked the sense of exploration of EV/O, the feeling (even if the graphics were often the same) that each planet had it's particular personality. I think that care would have to be taken in a massively multiplayer game to preserve those qualities.
Essentially, what I think of, when I read people discussion EVMP is a game that preserves as much as possible, the good qualities of the original game. Perhaps this could be done in a literal way: by just transferring all the old systems of EV into the new multiplayer format, but I'm inclined to think that the structure of the game would have to be altered significantly in order to preserve the "look and feel" of the original.
What do you think?
Bubbles
(This message has been edited by Bubbles (edited 04-03-2000).)
Bubbles wrote: If every player were assigned a small spöb, a large asteroid for instance, when s/he entered the game, many pilots would spend a lot of their time in the beginning of the game defending, improving, and politically advancing their property. The object could yield tax revenue or mining revenue or something, thus giving players an incentive to hold onto their spobs and perhaps improve their money yield. Players might try to take over other's spöbs as a way of earning money, they might align themselves with governments or form alliances to protect their investments, or they might abandon this system all together and go for the lucrative but dangerous life of a free-lancer.
That might, perhaps, detract from EV/O's focus as a space adventure game and make it more like Starcraft.
------------------ We come in peace, shoot to kill, shoot to kill, shoot to kill...
I agree with Bubbles when, in the message above, he (she?) suggests that the non-linearity should be limited. I suspect that the best way to do this would be to assign to Gamemasters the task of setting up large-scale plots.
I think it would be worthwhile to explore how one goes from player to Gamemaster. The first Gamemasters should be picked by Ambrosia or whomever makes the EVMP. After that, a player may become a Gamemaster if they are admitted by the other Gamemasters.
There should probably be only about two GMs in game at any one time. This means that they must have relatively simple controls for running the galaxy, and it prevents GMs from being associated with specific governments, etc,. It is probably wise to eliminate aliens and most huge governments altogether: perhaps the only intersystem politics should be between the North, the South, the East, and the West. These four groups would be run by the GMs.
Now, if we have only two GMs, and they run four governments, what are we going to do about other necessary pieces of EV furniture? Who will run the pirates? And what of the shipping fleets? We might simply tell some players that they will be the pirates (any volunteers?). They might be given a good ship and some upgrades. If they recruit some more pirates, they can renounce their ways and go off to something respectable (like military service). As for freighter fleets, I think that cargo pilots would quickly learn to band together for protection.
Minor interplanetary conflicts should probably be done away with: the Lethe-Cydonian thing played out over a dozen systems would drive the GMs nuts. However, perhaps a bunch of GMs would like to set up a suprise for the players on a dark and stormy night...
The GMs should be allowed to create fleets at will and have all sorts of incredible powers. Their identity should be broadcast to all on the network, so that people can get in touch with them if there are complaints.
In general, my priciple on matters of AI is cut, cut, cut: as much of the game as possible ought to be handled by human intellect. The computer allows for fancy graphics and awesome physics, but it's not much of a storyteller.
Obormot wrote: ** That might, perhaps, detract from EV/O's focus as a space adventure game and make it more like Starcraft. **
I agree, Obormot. I don't think it fits EV/O, I was just giving an example.
But the non-linearity is the whole point! EVMP players should have the same freedom of EV, with abilities to post missions in a bulletin board fashion, and govts should be controlled by single/multiple players, who decide who to give missions to and how to expand their empire - like Master of Orion II. Of course, this means that a select few control govts, about half would ally with govts in a military way, and the rest would be common mercenaries. Look at the uEV-RPG - that's the basic concept for EVMP, albeit a little too complex.
I think that the weaknesses of the on-line RPGs shows the problems inherant in having players run gövts. If you want to be assured of quality game play, I think that it's a good idea to come up with a more reliable source of structure than volunteers for whom the game is nessesarily second priority.
Moreover, EVMP should not be just like the RPG with the only difference being simpler controls. If that were the case, there would be no reason to create it at all. The RPGs already exist and are steadily improving. No, the game should be a different and more exciting one. On a side note, notice how few people participate in the RPGs. A massively multiplayer game would need to have more users than that to be worth making.
My opinion.
(This message has been edited by Bubbles (edited 04-05-2000).)
The only programming experience i have with programming is with RealBasic and VisualBasic(on PC). But i have some ideas that might help. 1. to solve the problem for people chatting with other the main screen would be divided into three. this would make it so that all resolutions on all player computers be the same( 800600 would probably be the best or 640480). it would be like this :
| (1) | || || | | | | (2) | (3) | | | | | || |_______________| (1)-bottom : this is where the player would type what he wanted to say. (1)-top : this is where the messages the the player and others sayed(like a chat room) but only the only time messages are recorded on the top chat screen is when the messages was said within the view of the current player(these should be shown in little cartoon like bubbles or something) or messages transmitted by a ship that uses a special outfit for transmitting to the whole galaxy(this device should be made very hard to get and would mostly be used for people trying to sell something like a rare outfit or ship). but u would have to put in an option to that would allow a player to ignore all long range transmitions(for people that aren't looking for something special or don't have any money to buy anything special). (2) : the main screen. same is the single EV/EVO. (3): same as single EV/EVO.
2. ii'm sure there are alot of people who will agree that EV/EVO's interface isn't great.
i had some more ideas but i can't remember them right now..... what do you think??
JSY915 wrote: ** 2. ii'm sure there are alot of people who will agree that EV/EVO's interface isn't great.
No, no! I like the interface, I'm sure most people do. I have heard no complaints. Certainly the mouse idea is a bad one, IMO. Use of the mouse would make the game slower-paced. However, the targeting should have an Ares-like option, in addition to the current one.
------------------ Analysis, Mr. Spock?
AIM: obormot345
Dang... you all have great ideas, I guess its time to re-look over all of the string, wouldn't want to miss something important that could be added...
I wish you luck in your endeavours
CS
------------------ Reasons why the UE and Voinians hate each other... Voinians prefer SPAM, while the UE likes SPAM light.... The heads of both governments were trying to figure out which wife was uglier... Tomato, Tom'aaa'to, is there a difference? Aparantly so... Two Voinians accused the UE of using IBM computers... A UE Cruiser accidentally blew up a Voinian planet... Two words: name calling
Firstly, for the scanning through hundreds of ships problem, you could probably set your scanner to skip all escorts, allied, disabled, and maybe neutral ships. (Please read the post up a ways on hostile classifications I posted.) In that post I talked about having a weapons scanner and a communications scanner. Scanning someone with the weap. scanner would make you appear hostile on their scanner, untill you break the lock. This scanner should automatically skip your escorts, your allies, yours (and your escorts and allies) fighters, and ships allied or escorting your allies or escorts. This would cut down dramatically on targets. You could probably also get a "freighter skip" scanner upgrade which makes your scanner skip all freighters, and maybe have one for fighters, and almost every type of ship. Of course, if the ship is hostile, it wouldn't skip. Regular communications scanner should be used for "tight beam" messages that arn't broadcast, and for just seeing whos in your area. Both the targeting scanners wouldn't have a range of more than one radar screens farther than your radar covers.
------------------ Zitchas
In responce to JSY915 :
You stated that the Main Title screen would be the same as that in EV or EVO. I disagree. (I am assuming you could play the universe by yourself or on the internet. By your self, plugs, düdes, përs, and computer ships would be enabled) For starters, the backround would be different to represent whatever the universe is like in EVOMP (assuming we have a different universe from EV or EVO). Secondly, there would have to be a button for "Enter Cyber Ship" or " Enter Multipilot" or something. When you click on "Create Pilot" you would have the choice of making it an internet pilot file, or a single player file. NOTE: files used in single player games SHOULD NOT be permited into the internet games. This alow for bugs and things due to plugs that change outfit masses, ship stats, etc.
Oh, and having the zoom-in/zoom-out options like in Ares is a cool idea. However, you should not be able to zoom out past your radar limit (no all objects zoom, closest hostile/object would be limited to radar area, etc)
Er, Zitchas, the easiest thing to do is to not have single player at all - saves time and money.
An insanely cool idea - pilot profile database. Acessible to all players, it lists all pilots and some of their stats - kill, combat rating, current govt. employer, personal info, and comments by people who hired said pilot - maybe even an amazon.com style rating system.
------------------ "This evening's meeting of the Clairvoyance Society canceled due to unforeseen circumstances." -More Anguished English
I like zitchas idea about scanning through ships. and to solve the pilot file problem pilot save files would be stored on the server computers(this would also prevent people from hacking their pilot).
Why can't they create an Appletalk version? This way you could have 2-<?> players who could fly around the galaxy and kill each other, help each other, or ignore each other. Either way it goes it would be very cool. If your were to have plugins all the players would have to have the same plug, but it could easily be emailed or some-such thing. Just spoutin' off ideas.
Daniel
In response to RIOTER :
In would be pretty worthless to have two, or even ten or twenty people flying around. In a universe the size of or bigger than EVO, it would be extremely rare that you encounter other players. If our idea of eliminating all computer ships is used (except for planetary defense and onboard fighters), the univserse would seem a vast and lonely place indeed.... If you had a REALLY big network, as in several hundred computers, you could probably get EVO to beleive that is the internet, but I think it would be simpler just to have everyone on the internet.
Personally, I think that AI ships should be used for fleets built by govts - player-controlled or otherwise. Imagine trying to use tactics when every pilot in your military is either off on their own or sleeping - so there will still be plenty of AI ships.
Besides, without AI ships, the galaxy does become a very lonely place.
------------------ "Please accept my resignation. I don't want to belong to any club that will have me as a member." - Groucho Marx