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Whoa, cow, did you ever learn how to make paragraphs? All that un-divided yellow text hurt my eyes. Anyway, a few posts ago, some people were yakking about whocould give what to a team. Well, i offer my excellent mission designing skills (hey, it's gotta have missions, don't it?). Also, I'd like to mentipon that probably not all of the EVO universe would make the multiplayer cut. I hav this sinking feeling that strand space would have to be eliminated or seriously downsized. And also, capturing planets for such-and-such goverment wouldn't work. The game would get funky if you had planetary defenses("Is it a planet or a ship? Aggh!"). And having missions designed by players? Wouldn't work to well. Knowing Ambrosia, most of the stuff would have to be teste for compatibility with the EVO universe and then get censored. Having lots of moderators is a neat idea though. I repeat: The galaxy would have to be smaller. Or, consider this alterative: Make different Net Channels for each sector of space. You could divide the massive void that is the EVO universe into the UE sector, Voinian sector, etc. Like those ideas?
------------------ "Where'd you get those coconuts?"
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Zeta wrote: **Well, it did look as if you were striking up a conversation with yourself.
I think we all have a pretty good idea of what the new EVMP would have to do. But who would do it? Not ambrosia (unless you're willing to wait the years for them to maybe change their minds). Why don't we form a team for this? Get some positive action going in the right path? Zitchas, you could even lead them if you had the skills and abilities. Even if most of your work is conceptual, that's probably one of the most important part of building a new game like this. A least somebody start this before I stop looking at any of these posts again. (if you catch my drift)
Good luck to the person who braves the path... **
I would gladly head a team to develope EVOMP, except I do not have anywhere near the level of programming skill to do anyhting remotly this complecated. I have only done basic :frown:, and I mean simple programming. If we had someone with enough programming skill to offer a reliable, knowledgable oppinion on doing this, I think a team could be possible, but untill then, it would stay a discution on conceptual ideas like this BB topic has been.
------------------ Zitchas
ColdFusion wrote: **Hey, when I feel bored, I design EVMP. I have a more or less complete design for interface, gameplay, and story already. However, I couldn't program my way out of a paper bag - if anyone wants to sign me on as concept and design, I'd be more than glad to help. **
If you have a copy of this interface, e.i. a pic, a drawing, etc. of this online? If you do, could you post the web adress so that those interested in this topic could see it. Seeing a complete designe would be neat, and it could give the rest of us something to compare to. Perhapse we could comment and modify it, and , perhaps, we could make a EVOMP that satisfies the majority of those interesested. Then we could, if we can find someone interested who has the programming skill nesescary, we could perhaps make a trial version.
Now, I know that that last part is a tall goal, but, hey, if you're going to dream, might as well dream big. Maybe Ambrosia would even take intrest and take over from there and complete the project. I wonder how much credit we would get?...
Captain Crunch wrote: **Also, I'd like to mentipon that probably not all of the EVO universe would make the multiplayer cut. I hav this sinking feeling that strand space would have to be eliminated or seriously downsized. And also, capturing planets for such-and-such goverment wouldn't work. The game would get funky if you had planetary defenses("Is it a planet or a ship? Aggh!"). And having missions designed by players? Wouldn't work to well. Knowing Ambrosia, most of the stuff would have to be teste for compatibility with the EVO universe and then get censored. Having lots of moderators is a neat idea though. I repeat: The galaxy would have to be smaller. Or, consider this alterative: Make different Net Channels for each sector of space. You could divide the massive void that is the EVO universe into the UE sector, Voinian sector, etc. Like those ideas? **
I agree that EVO map, as it stands now would be to big for one server to handle, so I think it should be split up so that each sector has its own server. Note, that it would be possible to get from one server to another just by taking a slightly longer than normal hyperjump. For example UE has one server, the Voinians/Emalgha have one, the miranu have one, each of the strands could have one. When you hyperjump out of one zone into another you would probably have a slight delay as you transfer servers, but if they are interconnected and have good connections for all of them it shouldn't be to bad.
Planet defenses would be like disabling a spaceship, after which you could board. Except you would get the standard planet screen, with a few options like converting the gov to your own, or who ever you're working for, or demanding tribute, or etc.
How about some sort of dynamic allocation of system servers. This would be determined by assigning a unique ID code to different systems within the galaxy.
The interface would be to log into a central server somewhere (say, ambrosia if they wanted to pick this up, but could be anywhere that has a LOT of bandwidth) which would then log delay time and current system ID for every user logged in. This server would be responsible for delegating system server status to the user in each system with the smallest amount of lag. The system server then would be responsible for running that system, sending completed data back to the main server, which would then rebroadcast that info to all users in the system. If the user jumps out of his system, then the server would be reassigned. Other players wouldn't even know that the server had changed...
This solution assumes that the server has a very fast connection, but does offer a far more scalable (and economic) solution then having a dedicated ring of servers running everything.
This also means that it would be rather trivial for someone to set up their own galaxy, running their own plug-in.
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(This message has been edited by kberg (edited 03-13-2000).)
Heh, its good to see you guys are starting to think more, I like what you're saying.
But here's something it seems a few of you havn't considered.
Okay, you're dreaming about this nice big EVO MP universe. I wont bash on you, cause its a dream, and I like dreams.
But why limit it to EVO? Who says it has to be that? If you were actually going to make an EV/EVO MP, it wouldn't be a plug, so don't you think it'd be worthy enough to get its own plotline?
And another thing, how hard do you think it would be to incorporate a few other universes (like the origional EV and EVO ones?).
What about games that can be played under smaller conditions (i.e. not massively multiplayer, but 16 or less)?
CS
Zitchas wrote: _I agree that EVO map, as it stands now would be to big for one server to handle, so I think it should be split up so that each sector has its own server. Note, that it would be possible to get from one server to another just by taking a slightly longer than normal hyperjump. For example UE has one server, the Voinians/Emalgha have one, the miranu have one, each of the strands could have one. When you hyperjump out of one zone into another you would probably have a slight delay as you transfer servers, but if they are interconnected and have good connections for all of them it shouldn't be to bad.
Planet defenses would be like disabling a spaceship, after which you could board. Except you would get the standard planet screen, with a few options like converting the gov to your own, or who ever you're working for, or demanding tribute, or etc. _
I don't think the existing EV/O universes should be used - an all new story ought to be created for an all new engine. Multiple servers would obviously be necessary, as you well note.
As I've said before, I don't think regular players should be able to create their own govt. (though it's a possibility if there's enough demand), because my concept for EVMP has it being sorta like a huge, real-time strategy game for the GM's/moderators/emperors, and it would be too complex if 2000 players each had their own govt.
I think planets should be captured with a limited ground combat system - a simplified version of Warcraft/Starcraft. Planets wouldn't have weapons (well not many), but stations would be heavily armed, like Ares.
Captain Crunch, missions would be like this discussion board - unique missions for any player would be posted onto a universal mission board, special missions sent to specific players - like email. The galaxy (at least in my concept) would be HUGE, so empires could expand and it would reduce traffic in induvidual systems.
------------------ "I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids." -Gen. Jack Ripper, Dr. Strangelove
Captain Scurvy wrote: **But why limit it to EVO? Who says it has to be that? If you were actually going to make an EV/EVO MP, it wouldn't be a plug, so don't you think it'd be worthy enough to get its own plotline?
CS**
Yes, it would be possible, probably even good, to have its own unique plot line, except that the current EVO plot line has everything nessecary for such a game : A huge selection of ships to spice up combat, a large selection of weaponry and outfits/upgrades, a a large selection of goverenments to ensure that there will always be something exciting happening somewhere. The Strand races nead their selection of shps filled out a bit with their own equivalents to the shutle, freighters, domestic crafts, etc. And there needs to be a few more planets for the Azdigari to explain why they havn't been wiped out with shear numbers by the Zidigar or Igadzra, but it would only be details, not overall plot that needs modification. Note that if awe did use the EVO universe, it would probably average out to be in a standard form similar to that at the start of EVO. Asorted back and forth wars would change boundaries back oand forth, but it would average out to be close to that of the initial EVO map.
It might be possible to insert the entire EV map in to replace the United Earth section of the EVO map, but you would have to expand the Voinians to match, and probably the others to prevent the UE from overwhelming everyone with shear numbers. This might make the overall map very big, :eek: however, so it would be nessecary to make some long hyperjumps to cut down on travel time ( say, roughly reduce travel time by about 1/2 if you take a certain route from one side to the other)
I'm not sure what the point of having small multiplayer games (i.e. 16 or less, etc) since if you have a universe of more than about 30 systems you would have almost no chance of encountering each other. The main benifit of having one massive universe is such that ALL the ships you encounter, with the exception of onboard fighters, are human controlled, and thus all ships can make mistakes, have the oportunity to to human things, like be distracted, do weird evasive stuf, do stupid (but maybe effective things), and especially, humans would have the oportunity to Learn. This would mean that ANY ship in the game, with the exception of launched fighters, would have unique stats, modified weaponry, and bizare behaviors. This is what would make the game different from standard EV/O.
ColdFusion wrote: **I don't think the existing EV/O universes should be used - an all new story ought to be created for an all new engine. Multiple servers would obviously be necessary, as you well note.
**
I think that empires and player govs should be limited to capturing/building a planet/station and being able to control who that station would consider enemies, allies, etc, and being able to impose taxes on those landing on it, upgrading the shipyard/outfiters, and building up the planet/station defences and hiring other players to act as system militia. Oh, and buying ships to act as the planet defence fleet.(these would probably act as lauched fighters, and thus would be computer controlled) If someone tried to capture a planet/station, a mission could appear in the Bar "Red Alert, this station is under attack. All hands to your ships" or "Please help defend us" or similar things.
I could see having a "universal mision board" for character specific misions, like ones that are adressed solely to individual, or select groups of characters. These misions would anly be visible to those they apply to. However, generic "transport goods from <LOC> to <DEST> by <DTE>." or stuff like that should be in a standard mission center seeing as they have the charactar take goods/passengers/etc from this location to that location, sometimes by a certain date, sometimes not. Maybe some passenger missions should have time limits to. The people probably want to get wherever as quickly as they can, you know.
I still disagree that I do not think that we should incorporate starcraft style ground combat in to it. The closest I would see is maybe zooming into the planet when you land, then you land at a runway or something. If you wanted, you could start straffing the stuff, and maybe land a shutle of shock troups, or something. flying around down there would be the equivalent of clicking on the shipyard, or outfiting buttons in standard EV/O. You could even see the ships of other people parked there. There would also be a "Parking Bay" where you land, which would be the equivalent of saving and exiting to the games main screen. Thus active ships that are just landed on the planet could be attacked (precipitating the player to be sent a warning emmediatly saying he is under attack. Perhaps you could get a transporter upgrade so that you would be teleported back into your ship emmediatly, instead of just being notified.
Speaking of that, it would be neat to be able to custom color your ship so that it is more recognizable by your allies/enemies/etc. This would probably increase the size of the game tremendously, however.
I beleive that it would be good to have some way of differentiating between different players. Maybe there should be a way to change the coulours on your ship. Perhapse there could be a 3d sppinnign model of your ship in which you could paint with conventional tools, paintbrush, spray can, fill, etc. This could be in some shipyards, and you'd have to pay. Say, 25 credits per ton of mass your ship has that was painted over, or something like that.
Unfortuatly, this would probably increase the size of the game tremendously, since the com puter couldn't just assume things to be the default coulours, shading patterns, etc.
Maybe the targeting scanner should reveal what is actualy on the ship, say, pointing out what kind of turrets/cannons, projectiles, etc. This would be quite usefull.
**Yes, it would be possible, probably even good, to have its own unique plot line, except that the current EVO plot line has everything nessecary for such a game : A huge selection of ships to spice up combat, a large selection of weaponry and outfits/upgrades, a a large selection of goverenments to ensure that there will always be something exciting happening somewhere. The Strand races nead their selection of shps filled out a bit with their own equivalents to the shutle, freighters, domestic crafts, etc. And there needs to be a few more planets for the Azdigari to explain why they havn't been wiped out with shear numbers by the Zidigar or Igadzra, but it would only be details, not overall plot that needs modification. Note that if awe did use the EVO universe, it would probably average out to be in a standard form similar to that at the start of EVO. Asorted back and forth wars would change boundaries back oand forth, but it would average out to be close to that of the initial EVO map.
Sigh, you're talking about making one of the most revolutionary games and you want to keep an old plot. Talk about irony. Thats why you create a different universe, with decent graphics.
**It might be possible to insert the entire EV map in to replace the United Earth section of the EVO map, but you would have to expand the Voinians to match, and probably the others to prevent the UE from overwhelming everyone with shear numbers. This might make the overall map very big, however, so it would be nessecary to make some long hyperjumps to cut down on travel time ( say, roughly reduce travel time by about 1/2 if you take a certain route from one side to the other)
Or hey, why don't you just use plugs just like in EVO that are able to replace IDs with its own info to create personal multiplayer games for people.
**I'm not sure what the point of having small multiplayer games (i.e. 16 or less, etc) since if you have a universe of more than about 30 systems you would have almost no chance of encountering each other.
Thats why you limit the # of systems for that kind of game. Think about it, you could have 16 players in 3 systems, creating little wars and such.
**The main benifit of having one massive universe is such that ALL the ships you encounter, with the exception of onboard fighters, are human controlled, and thus all ships can make mistakes, have the oportunity to to human things, like be distracted, do weird evasive stuf, do stupid (but maybe effective things), and especially, humans would have the oportunity to Learn. This would mean that ANY ship in the game, with the exception of launched fighters, would have unique stats, modified weaponry, and bizare behaviors. This is what would make the game different from standard EV/O.
Why not have both? Don't just look at once side of the coin.
Zitchas wrote: _I think that empires and player govs should be limited to capturing/building a planet/station and being able to control who that station would consider enemies, allies, etc, and being able to impose taxes on those landing on it, upgrading the shipyard/outfiters, and building up the planet/station defences and hiring other players to act as system militia. Oh, and buying ships to act as the planet defence fleet.(these would probably act as lauched fighters, and thus would be computer controlled) If someone tried to capture a planet/station, a mission could appear in the Bar "Red Alert, this station is under attack. All hands to your ships" or "Please help defend us" or similar things.
Iostill disagree that I do not think that we should incorporate starcraft style ground combat in to it. The closest I would see is maybe zooming into the planet when you land, then you land at a runway or something. If you wanted, you could start straffing the stuff, and maybe land a shutle of shock troups, or something. flying around down there would be the equivalent of clicking on the shipyard, or outfiting buttons in standard EV/O. You could even see the ships of other people parked there. There would also be a "Parking Bay" where you land, which would be the equivalent of saving and exiting to the games main screen. Thus active ships that are just landed on the planet could be attacked (precipitating the player to be sent a warning emmediatly saying he is under attack. Perhaps you could get a transporter upgrade so that you would be teleported back into your ship emmediatly, instead of just being notified.
_
Heh, you misinterpreted me. I think that EVMP should be a strategy game for GM's - like a huge combo of Ares and Master of Orion II, but a little less complex. You manufacture resources, build fleets, and send them zooming around the galaxy fighting your enemies. Independent players would not be able to command planets - but they could command a fleet assigned to them. Keep in mind that shipyards, etc. are commercial entities - game admin would decide on what gets sold where.
Missions - three types. First, the generic cargo mission: randomly generated and always available on the main mission board. Second, the mission posted to the mission board - special rush missions, recruitments, etc. Thirdly, the special missions that are mailed directly into a player's account.
I'm sorry I have to disagree with you, but I think that ground combat should be implemented in a VERY limited fashion - you land your transport, and tell the soldiers/marines where to attack, like commmanding escorts. Bombing could be done this way too.
I don't think that players should have custom colors - imagine how much it would slow network traffic. They would have custom names, though.
I'll type up my full design sometime later.
ColdFusion wrote: **(Heh, you misinterpreted me. I think that EVMP should be a strategy game for GM's - like a huge combo of Ares and Master of Orion II, but a little less complex. You manufacture resources, build fleets, and send them zooming around the galaxy fighting your enemies. Independent players would not be able to command planets - but they could command a fleet assigned to them. Keep in mind that shipyards, etc. are commercial entities - game admin would decide on what gets sold where.
I think that the world/station area could be an area where you esentially go down into atmosphere, and fly to the section of the starport you want i.e. shipyard, outfiting shop, Bar, etc. see my abouve reply. where you can fly around, attack landed ships, land on the ground, and, I supose basic ground combat such as ordering marines to go capture that anti-ship turret or stuff like that could be done, but it would add considerable detail, namely in the command structure, and in the marines mouvement, since they would be obstructed by buildings, etc and can't fly. I'll conceed that this much could be possible, but I'd leave it for later on after the game itself is functionning, since it does not add much to the gamelplay, and does add a lot of details and programming.
I agree that enabling custom coloring for player ships would slow down internet traffic a lot, but, if it was possible to get some kind of high speed internet bandwidth for it, it would make combat A LOT easier to keep straight.
I think there should still be bar only missions, such as Azdigari patrol missions, who group together in bars. There should be some that appear anywhere, such as "RED ALERT, the station is under attack, all hands to your ships!!" These missions should appear to all players who are on the station. If you fight off the attackers, you should get rewarded, but it shouldn't be a mision as such. Just some system that keeps track of who took off and fought to defend the station, and reward them when they land.
I know that creating a new universe would be good, but it would be similar to the one in EVO, since it would be best to have races of each type as shown by their ships:
-one with extreme armour -one with extreme sheilds -one with extreme speed -one with extreme weapons -one with extreme cargo capacity -one that is balanced *note that the ones with extreme something are generally average in other aspects, or at least balanced otherwise eg.the race with extreme sheilds has minimal armour, and vice-versa, and the same sort of balancing for the other items.
To do this with the EVO universe, it would only be nessecary to fill in some voids, like civilian/transport ships for the Azdigari, Igadzra, and Zidigar. Maybe also put in more planets (like Ioth Prime or Crocket) that have ships unique to them that are special in some way (the Freight-courier that provides a tough, but large capacity freighter, and the helian, which is a much smaller version of it.)
It would also be neat if you could start as one of the other races in their equivalent of the shutle. Along these lines, It would be nice to be able to able to customize your ships basic colouring. Like have the ship's surface divided into 3 parts : the trim, the main, and the auxillary colour sections. Then the pilot could "pay" extra in the outfiting shop to change the colour of one of these sections. There would probably be about 31 possible colours to choose from. This method would require only a colour identifier for each section, and would be much less time or space consumming than my previous idea of letting the pilot paint the ship however he wants, which would require pixel by pixel information of the entire visible area of the ship. esentially a full spďn file per pilot. :eek: If this was used, this colour scheme would be used by all ships loyal to those planets the pilot controled, thus serving to visually identify fleets, etc.
And I do think that all stations and planets should have SOME defensive weaponry. This weaponry would probably depend on the tech rating of the planet : high ratings, get more weaponry, since presumably they can afford it better.
Custom ship colours... Rather easy to implement actually, though it would have to be limited to simple hue adjusting (like the cloak effect, but only for one ship) The player would be able to select the colour to retone the ship, and assign a weight to the hue. Implementationally all that would be needed is the ability to add a third game generated mask that would basically retone the sprite by the appropriate amount.
Another more complicated solution would be to create 8-bit masks (with transparency) This mask would also have the ability to define 3 zones on the sprite (red, green, blue) Those 3 colours would mean totally opaque if at full 255 value, and totally transparent if at 0. The user then would be able to (in the game) use a sort of flood fill tool to select a hue to recolour any zone of the ship any hue they want. An appropriate sprite mask could then be generated from this data.
The first solution is less complicated and is more flexible. The second solution allows FAR more variety for the player to recolour the ship, but requires more work on the graphic designers part, AND assumes that the POV is always top down (can't do angled views since proportions would change).
Alright, now that we've solved the major problem of custom ship colors, lets tackle the lesser tasks, like the net engine, the interface, the server software, the graphics, the plot, and the player registration process...
You know, as long as you're getting into the every-plot-is-like-evo.
If you want an advanced plot that works well with massive multiplayer, you'd be better off to pick EV than EVO. It has 2 major factions, the Rebels and Confeds, all of which can be infinitly arranged to work well, and introduces Pirates, Independents, and a few other smaller local factions.
To be frank, it'd be much cooler to expand the EV universe than EVO one. The EVO one has too many plot-loops and is large enough as it is.
(This coming from a die-hard EV fan).
If an EVMP were to come out, I'd want it exactly that, EV.
I would have agree that EV would make a better universe than EVO, as its more unified along a central plot line. I would, however, rather their be a whole new plot than the old EV one, one with alot of factions like EVO but unified like EV. Have a central conflict thats really huge, between 2 giant space empires. Then add smaller alliances, breakaway groups, cults, corporations, pirate factions, etc.
I for one don't think that a player should be able to conquer planets on their own. AI ships are no match for human players, and people would log on and find that all their planets had been conquered. I think that it would be a good idea to form alliances with other players, and have the colors or symbols uploaded to the server. Whenever someone logged on they would take a few seconds to download any changed info, and so one could tell who a player was with wothout downloading the color schemes everytime they see a ship.
Also, I was wondering what you people though of Celestium, which looks like an EVMP. (url="http://"http://alienorb.com/celestium.html")http://alienorb.com/celestium.html(/url) The transparent HUD looks like it could be cool, though I don't know how well it will play.
-Yorick
Yorick wrote: **I would have agree that EV would make a better universe than EVO, as its more unified along a central plot line. **
I think that for a massive multiplayer game, a more diverse and rich environment would have a cooler effect. Imagine going off into one section of the galaxy, building up a reasonable fortune and ship, and returning only to find that everything has changed and you're not as powerful as you thought... I think that such a dynamic setup would be one of the greatest strengths of a massive multiplayer environment.
As for players being able to conquer planets... I guess that's OK. There could be an administrative set-up that would be present on top of the normal planetary dialog if the user happened to own the system. Ownership could be transfered both by buying the planet, or by domination. This would mean that a player would have to choose between letting his planet be run automatically and flying around, or staying on the planet and running things himself. Money gained by domination would be a LOT more (enough to purchase and upgrade your defense fleet).
Alliances, this becomes almost essential in a multiplayer game. The effect would be like the two of you share a common government (can't shoot each other, appear green on each others radar) So it becomes possible then for you to dominate a planet, have a member of your alliance admin. it and go off to conquer another planet, thus forming a new gov't
I guess I'll also add this... Before anyone flames me for suggesting this read everything to see the advantages. We should do away with resource forked plug-ins. It restricts the game to a single state. The clients plug-in folder would be ignored during multi-player, only servers can run plugs. Loading a plug-in would be dynamic and would be done through packages (ala OS 9 or OS X) Allowing an infinite number of ships, planets, systems, everything to be added at any point during gameplay... When a player joins the game, the appropriate files would be uploaded to the client machine, any changes made to the plug-ins while the player was playing would be updated the first time they landed on a planet. This is actually not as impossible as many of you probably think. It's a LOT of work, for sure, but not difficult. If someone here has a good foundation in either metroworks or MPW on the mac, or knows a lot about TCP/IP, and is interested in all of this happening, email me and we can lay out a framework. Once I finish this set of mid-terms I might start some high-level designs... Missions are still a problem though. Any thoughts on how those should be implemented?
I can be reached at kberg@sfu.ca. Sorry for the long post
That's exactly what I've been thinking - no plugins on the enduser side, just off servers to prevent weird problems.
I don't think players should be able to capture planets for a number of reasons - firstly, I think that EVMP is a unique game that is a strategy game for GM's and an action/arcade Ares/EV hybrid for independent players. Secondly, I don't think a single person who commands a fleet and is constantly traveling can be an absolute dictator - but they can demand tribute from a planet so the govt. will pay to keep them away. Players would also be able to commmand marines/soldiers assigned to them to capture planets/stations in the name of a govt.
Actually, players might form their own govts - but they would have to be strictly regulated by admin: imagine instead of 20 mid-sized empires fighting each other, there were 200 one-system empires.
My idea for an EVMP story is simple: the aftermath of the collapse of an empire leaves dozens of warring human (maybe alien) factions. This lets players pick any govt they may like, and also eliminates the problem of huge groups of players fighting for one side or another - if that happened, then huge hundred-ship battles would clog up the network.
Too many ships in a system is not so much a problem... First of all, we would program it so unlimited ships could theoretically be handled in a system. Then we WOULD set a limit (have to play around to figure this limit out) basically it would be 20-50 ships less then the comfortable maximum. That 20-50 buffer would be used for defense fleets, players taking off from the planet, etc. A player trying to jump into a system full to capacity would simply recieve a message saying "Unable to jump: this hyperspace route has been temporarily disabled by extensive use." or some such.
Coding for essentailly two different modes of play, as in an administrative play AND individual game play would add a lot of complexity. I'll chew on how to do this for a bit... The best solution I can come up with is two different client programs. I've never played either of the games you mentioned, so let me know if how they solved any interface nasties with what you propose. Heh, I just can't really see why a planet would bother to pay tribute to some player half way across the galaxy. Demanding tribute should have a reason, either a complete take-over, or because you are going to position a whole fleet over the planet and blow it to **** if you don't get your money in time(in which case we'll have to code in some way to blow up planets). Otherwise, we'll just end up with almost every planet paying tribute to some guy or other during the game for no appreciable reason.