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Originally posted by David Arthur: **Are you actually bringing out the fact that the rebels attack civilian ships as a point in their favour? The shuttles, light freighters, etc. that fly around with Confederate transponders are not (usually) military supply ships. They're civilian vessels owned by people or corporations on Confederate planets, and there's no benefit to the Rebel cause or anyone's freedom in destroying them. Attacking civilians is generally considered to be a violation of the rules of civilised war, if that's not a contradiction in terms. I'd say this Rebel behaviour is probably the best argument against them! **
Oh, and so you are saying just because they are Confed "Civillians" they must not be attacked? NO WAY!! I am dead sick of this junk you try to defend the Confeds win! Confed "civillians" carry Confed supplies, ammunition, weapons, and who knows what else! If the Confeds don't transport their cargo that way, how do they transport it then?
Originally posted by David Arthur: **The ships with no transponder are civilian ships from independent planets. The cargo ships with Confederate transponders are civilian ships from Confederate planets. If you want my reasoning, here it is. If I had an ocean-going vessel, it would be registered in Canada. It would not be in any way connected with the Canadian Navy, but it would have a Canadian registration and fly a Canadian flag. I'm assuming that the registration system in EV has been carried over from modern sea practices the same way many other things have, so if you were a civilian from a Confederate planet operating a spaceship, you would have a Confederate registration and a Confederate transponder. **
Well this is not Canada and this is not Earth. This is space, and this is war. No rules.
And besides, you are totally ignoring the fact that this is a GAME in which you can not always make everything perfect. All you have to do is make another Confed government which looks exactly like the normal Confeds except that the Rebels don't mind them. Then, make all the Confed merchants that Confed government, and everything will be fine. Except, just because that wasn't a very important issue for the game you decide to use it to try and defend the Confeds. Ugh.
------------------ If at first you don't succeed...Hit it harder! - Me -------------- Millennium. Its coming, prepare for it. Coming to the (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiaSW.com/games/ev/chronicles.html")EV Chronicles(/url).
Originally posted by Captain Carnotaur: Confed "civillians" carry Confed supplies, ammunition, weapons, and who knows what else! If the Confeds don't transport their cargo that way, how do they transport it then?
Are you actually trying to argue that a defenceless Luxury Liner is really a military support vessel in disguise? As for Macavenger's point about the traders, I would consider them to be some sort of trading guild, since they hold grudges and will fight together. I still say that most freighters with a Confederate transponder are civilian ships from Confederate planets, and although an occasional one may be carrying military equipment, there is no way you can use the supposed cause of "freedom" to justify attacking anything from the Core Worlds that moves!
Originally posted by Captain Carnotaur: And besides, you are totally ignoring the fact that this is a GAME in which you can not always make everything perfect. All you have to do is make another Confed government which looks exactly like the normal Confeds except that the Rebels don't mind them. Then, make all the Confed merchants that Confed government, and everything will be fine.
Except that, since this is so easy to do, and the engine was written specifically for this scenario, the fact that this was not done is a pretty good argument in favour of the fact that Matt Burch intended for the Rebels to be attacking civilians.
------------------ David Arthur Talon Plugin for Classic EV: (url="http://"http://members.aol.com/darthur1/talon-ev/")http://members.aol.c...thur1/talon-ev/(/url)
(This message has been edited by David Arthur (edited 05-27-2001).)
Hey Carno, lighten up a little here! Don't get furious and fly off the handle just because David or someone else posts something contrary to your beliefs about the game! It's much more fun, and effective, to calmly try to show why his points are wrong, rather than just raving angrily. That's not good debating technique.
Originally posted by David Arthur: Are you actually trying to argue that a defenceless Luxury Liner is really a military support vessel in disguise? As for Macavenger's point about the traders, I would consider them to be some sort of trading guild, since they hold grudges and will fight together. I still say that most freighters with a Confederate transponder are civilian ships from Confederate planets, and although an occasional one may be carrying military equipment, there is no way you can use the supposed cause of "freedom" to justify attacking anything from the Core Worlds that moves!
OK, first, I see Luxury Liners as being analogous to the Lusitania in WWI. Yes, it was a civilian ship, and yes, there was a lot of outrage when it was sunk, but it had visible guns. The Germans were at least partially justified in sinking it. The civilians on board were regrettable collateral damage. While I doubt that Luxury Liners carry much in the way of military supplies, they do have a laser turret, so obviously they need to defend themselves for some reason. Since they don't really stray from the core worlds, and those are very well patrolled and without pirate problems, you have to wonder a bit why that turret is needed. They clearly are operated by the Confederacy. And, if you want to bring up Executive Transports, which really are defenseless, they carry high ranking Confederate leaders with some frequency, and while assassination and such isn't really clean tactics, it is used in most wars.
Could you explain your trading guild idea a bit more clearly? I don't see what you're getting at there, especially not the holding grudges and fighting together part. And again, you failed to address my point that if there are such Confederate civilians, there should be some from Rebel worlds with Rebel transponders, but there are none. Also, the Rebels do not attack anything in the Core Worlds that moves. They leave the true independent traders alone.
Originally posted by David Arthur: Except that, since this is so easy to do, and the engine was written specifically for this scenario, the fact that this was not done is a pretty good argument in favour of the fact that Matt Burch intended for the Rebels to be attacking civilians.
I still don't believe that they are civilians, and there is really no good reason that the Rebels shouldn't be attacking them.
<Edited a few typos.>
------------------ So go on the internet game sites and bash all the PC users!
(This message has been edited by Macavenger (edited 05-27-2001).)
Originally posted by Macavenger: While I doubt that Luxury Liners carry much in the way of military supplies, they do have a laser turret, so obviously they need to defend themselves for some reason. Since they don't really stray from the core worlds, and those are very well patrolled and without pirate problems, you have to wonder a bit why that turret is needed. They clearly are operated by the Confederacy.
The Luxury Liner's description says it is operated by Centauri Spacelines, which is an independent company, not part of the Confederate military. And as far as the laser turret goes, have you ever watched liners in the Capella system? That system is a common destination of liners and executive transports, and also of Rebel Mantas. While the laser turret doesn't really do much good in battle, I can understand why they would want to have it.
Originally posted by Macavenger: Could you explain your trading guild idea a bit more clearly? I don't see what you're getting at there, especially not the holding grudges and fighting together part.
The "Traders" are a government resource, and as such, carry a legal status for the player. If you attack one Trader, it will cause other traders to hate you, particularly përs ships such as the Ambrosia people.
Originally posted by Macavenger: And again, you failed to address my point that if there are such Confederate civilians, there should be some from Rebel worlds with Rebel transponders, but there are none.
Simple. The Confederation is a "real" government, with citizens and a military. The Rebellion, well it has grown quite large, is still in reality a rebellion, and as such probably has a lot less of an organised government and bureaucracy. So you are only really a "rebel" if you are actively fighting against the Confederation.
Originally posted by Macavenger: Also, the Rebels do not attack anything in the Core Worlds that moves. They leave the true independent traders alone.
I didn't say anything in the Core Worlds, I said anything from the Core Worlds. The independent ships are ships, like the player, which came from an independent world like Levo or Yemuro.
Originally posted by David Arthur: The Luxury Liner's description says it is operated by Centauri Spacelines, which is an independent company, not part of the Confederate military. And as far as the laser turret goes, have you ever watched liners in the Capella system? That system is a common destination of liners and executive transports, and also of Rebel Mantas. While the laser turret doesn't really do much good in battle, I can understand why they would want to have it.
So if it's just a civilian company ferrying passengers around innocently, why does it need a turret? Liners are never seen outside Confederation space (or the Cappela system for that matter, but it's clear they come from other Confed planets), so why should a civilian company, running its own liners, need to arm them? If they weren't affiliated with the Confederates in some way, they wouldn't need a turret and the Rebels wouldn't attack them.
Originally posted by David Arthur: The "Traders" are a government resource, and as such, carry a legal status for the player. If you attack one Trader, it will cause other traders to hate you, particularly përs ships such as the Ambrosia people.
This is simply inaccurate. Yes there is a traders government, but they are really not associated in any way, certainly not in some kind of guild as you say. The traders never attack without provocation. The only time the Ambrosia pers ships do is if that pilot has previously attacked them, because they all have the "grudge" flag activated. It does not matter how many of the independents you kill, this makes the Confeds mad, but not other traders.
Originally posted by David Arthur: Simple. The Confederation is a "real" government, with citizens and a military. The Rebellion, well it has grown quite large, is still in reality a rebellion, and as such probably has a lot less of an organised government and bureaucracy. So you are only really a "rebel" if you are actively fighting against the Confederation.
The Rebellion is as much a "real" government as the Confederacy is. "Rebellion" is listed as the official government on many worlds.Since it governs several worlds, the Rebels are still a legitimate government. They have their own High Command and central government on Palshife. So those worlds and people really are part of the rebellion. If there are traders based on Confederate world with Confederate transponders, there should be some from these rebel worlds flying with rebel transponders, but since there aren't all truly neutral traders fly with no transponder codes, even those from Confed worlds.
Originally posted by David Arthur: I didn't say anything in the Core Worlds, I said anything from the Core Worlds. The independent ships are ships, like the player, which came from an independent world like Levo or Yemuro.
Sorry for the misunderstanding. Once again, I find myself drawing analogies to WWII here. When the US was sending supplies out to Britain, The German U-boats tried to sink them all. Those freighters were working for our government, bringing supplies of who knows what out towards Britain. I suggest that what the Rebels are doing, destroying Confed freighters out in independent systems, is no different from German U-Boats sinking US freighters in the middle of the Atlantic. The Confederation could have strike bases on those worlds, much as the US and Japan had outposts on islands all over the Pacific. Those Confed freighters could be brining out war supplies. If you and I are having a feud and I drive toward your house with a big truck full of something, are you just going to wait and see what's in the truck when it gets to your house? Most likely, you're going to do something about it. In the Rebels case, since they have weapons ready, they're going to blast the freighters in self defense. A war cannot be won only with military ships, supply freighters are just as important.
On a side note, David, I really enjoy debating this topic with you in a civilized manner. Despite our radically different views here, it's good we can maintain the civility, even when Carno pops in with one of his little rants. <edit> Also, you're a worthy opponent at this too.</edit>
Originally posted by Macavenger: So if it's just a civilian company ferrying passengers around innocently, why does it need a turret? Liners are never seen outside Confederation space (or the Cappela system for that matter, but it's clear they come from other Confed planets), so why should a civilian company, running its own liners, need to arm them? If they weren't affiliated with the Confederates in some way, they wouldn't need a turret and the Rebels wouldn't attack them.
We seem to have hit an impasse here. You say that the Rebels attack liners because they have turrets, and I say they have turrets because the Rebels attack them. The only thing I can think of to add to this is that, given the standard configurations of most ships, most people in the EV universe seem to think that it's a good idea to have some sort of weapon on board no matter what you're doing. I would think that Centauri Spacelines is just trying to lose as few of its liners and passengers as possible, and avoid costly litigation.
Originally posted by David Arthur: **We seem to have hit an impasse here. You say that the Rebels attack liners because they have turrets, and I say they have turrets because the Rebels attack them. The only thing I can think of to add to this is that, given the standard configurations of most ships, most people in the EV universe seem to think that it's a good idea to have some sort of weapon on board no matter what you're doing. I would think that Centauri Spacelines is just trying to lose as few of its liners and passengers as possible, and avoid costly litigation. **
I agree that we're at an impasse on the Liners. Should I infer from your lack of rebuttal attempts to my other points about freighters that you concede them to me?
Originally posted by Macavenger: The Rebellion is as much a "real" government as the Confederacy is. "Rebellion" is listed as the official government on many worlds.Since it governs several worlds, the Rebels are still a legitimate government.
I didn't mean that the Rebellion is not a legitimate government. What I was trying to convey is that the Confederation is like any government today, in that it's primary goal is to control and administer its territory. The primary goal of the Rebellion, however, is to overthrow the Confederation. Given the fact that it has less resources than the Confederation, it seems to devote most of its efforts towards this goal. Since the Rebellion's purpose is military, I doubt that they have as developed a bureaucracy and administration.
Originally posted by Macavenger: So those worlds and people really are part of the rebellion.
I have to disagree here as well. Living on a planet controlled by the Rebellion (capital R) is not the same as being part of the rebellion (small R). Because of the definition of what a rebel is, you are only a rebel if you are personally rebelling against something.
I think these two points explain why I believe that transponders saying "rebel" are issued only to actual rebels, while the Confederation requires its citizens to run its transponder.
Originally posted by David Arthur: I didn't mean that the Rebellion is not a legitimate government. What I was trying to convey is that the Confederation is like any government today, in that it's primary goal is to control and administer its territory. The primary goal of the Rebellion, however, is to overthrow the Confederation. Given the fact that it has less resources than the Confederation, it seems to devote most of its efforts towards this goal. Since the Rebellion's purpose is military, I doubt that they have as developed a bureaucracy and administration.
The Rebellion has to control and administer territory just as much as the Confederation does. If they didn't, what resources they have would slip away, and they would have no chance at achieving their main goal. Additionally, if a government is overthrown, the one that rises up to replace it has historically never continued for long unless the framework of a new government already existed. The Rebels must already be administering their space, then, If they have any chance of long-term survival. This would include doing things like giving Rebel transponders to freighters registered on their worlds, if such a thing were commonly done. Since they don't it must not be done, and the Confed freighters really are confederate. I believe this also holds up my other point that the worlds and people are part of the Rebellion.
Heh... if Burch was ever on this board, we'd have been told "Relax, it's just a game" by now....
I perfer Confederates over any of the gov's because they have better ships than the rebels but the pirates have the kestral but I can hack through the program and change a few objectives.
------------------
Originally posted by Fremenworm: **I perfer Confederates over any of the gov's because they have better ships than the rebels but the pirates have the kestral but I can hack through the program and change a few objectives.
**
What a poor soul you are, not knowing the destiny that awaits you...
Long live the Rebellion!
President of the Corsair Development Team (url="http://"http://artworks.tmgmedia.net")Corsair Homepage(/url) | (url="http://"http://pub57.ezboard.com/bcorsairdevelopers")Corsair Web Board(/url) | (url="http://"http://pub101.ezboard.com/bstarbasedelta")Starbase Delta(/url)
Originally posted by Macavenger: Since they don't it must not be done, and the Confed freighters really are confederate.
I'm afraid I'm going to have to invoke the liners again. The luxury liners are definitely civilian ships operated by a corporation.
From the ingame description of the Luxury Liner: Centauri Spacelines operates its custom-built luxury liners between all of the Core Worlds.
The liners carry a Confederate transponder. Therefore, civilian ships from Confederate planets carry Confederate transponders.
Originally posted by Macavenger: I believe this also holds up my other point that the worlds and people are part of the Rebellion.
The word rebellion means an effort to overthrow a government, in this case the Confederation. Therefore, unless someone is actively working to overthrow the Confederation, they are not part of the rebellion. Or are you saying that the Rebellion forces all of the inhabitants of its planets to work for its cause?
I'm going to get out of this conflict, but before I do, I'll point out that there was already a huge topic on this (url="http://"http://www.AmbrosiaSW.com/webboard/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20001030-6-000187.html")here(/url).
Now, I shall leave this conflict (but I still like the Rebels).
------------------ YakKa Foob MoG. GRuG PubbuWuP ZiNk WattooM GaZoRK. CHuMBLE SpuZz. (url="http://"http://pub101.ezboard.com/bstarbasedelta")Starbase Delta(/url)
Originally posted by Lord Gwydion: I'm going to get out of this conflict, but before I do, I'll point out that there was already a huge topic on this here.
Didn't somebody already point that out somewhere on page 1 or 2? Anyway, there's also Esponer (SilverDragon)'s topic from a month or two back, Captain Carnotaur's Rebel Memo, and The Jazzman's RE: Rebel Memo.
(edit)In fact, it was pointed out on page 1, by none other than myself. :)(/edit)
(This message has been edited by David Arthur (edited 05-30-2001).)
Yes, I do remember that, but lots of people just read the last few posts, and therefore wouldn't see your post on the first page.
Originally posted by David Arthur: I'm afraid I'm going to have to invoke the liners again. The luxury liners are definitely civilian ships operated by a corporation.
You may score a point there. I'll work on that one for a while. The only things I can think of off the top of my head are so feeble that I won't even bother to mention them.
In the mean time, I'll give you something else to chew on:
Originally posted by David Arthur: **The word rebellion means an effort to overthrow a government, in this case the Confederation. Therefore, unless someone is actively working to overthrow the Confederation, they are not part of the rebellion. Or are you saying that the Rebellion forces all of the inhabitants of its planets to work for its cause? **
True, the citizens are not part of the r ebellion, but they are governed by the R ebellion. The R ebellion needs and has the governmental infrastructure to support its r ebellion, so the citizen's on those planets are governed by the R ebellion, and should have Rebel transponders if the Confed civilians do.
Additionally, you still haven't done anything with some of my WWII analogies from higher up this page.
Originally posted by David Arthur: **Didn't somebody already point that out somewhere on page 1 or 2? Anyway, there's also Esponer (SilverDragon)'s topic from a month or two back, Captain Carnotaur's Rebel Memo, and The Jazzman's RE: Rebel Memo.
We just all want you to know that nothing will turn us to the dark side...
Originally posted by Captain Skyblade: We just all want you to know that nothing will turn us to the dark side...
The dark side? I seem to remember that the dark side involves hate and anger, and I've seen a lot more angry Rebels than Confederate supporters.
Originally posted by David Arthur: **The dark side? I seem to remember that the dark side involves hate and anger, and I've seen a lot more angry Rebels than Confederate supporters.
If the Confederation is such a nice and kind government, then why on earth did the whole war even start? I ask that you read the intro text to Escape Velocity over and over until you see just why there are so many Rebels here.
I would also think that you like the Empire more then the Rebels in Star Wars? The same war fought in the movie is basically for the same reasons...Think about it.
Originally posted by Captain Skyblade: If the Confederation is such a nice and kind government, then why on earth did the whole war even start? I ask that you read the intro text to Escape Velocity over and over until you see just why there are so many Rebels here.
The war probably started because the people on the fringes blamed the Core Worlds for the poor conditions that resulted from the Great War, especially since the planets farther from the fringes were also farther from the action, and therefore less damaged. As for the intro text, are you saying that the majority of people will believe anything that scrolls across their screen, even if it contradicts things they can easily see for themselves?
Originally posted by Captain Skyblade: I would also think that you like the Empire more then the Rebels in Star Wars? The same war fought in the movie is basically for the same reasons...Think about it.
Actually, that war was being fought against a government that was actively demolishing democracy, promoting racism, and all together evil, rather than merely a government that they blamed for the poor conditions that formed the aftermath of a war with a brutal alien race. Also, the people fighting it didn't commit nearly as many morally questionable actions as EV's rebellion.