Your browser does not seem to support JavaScript. As a result, your viewing experience will be diminished, and you have been placed in read-only mode.
Please download a browser that supports JavaScript, or enable it if it's disabled (i.e. NoScript).
Quote
Originally posted by Loki: **As for the Confeds being NAZIs, I don't think so, they fit better with Brittain. Australia, America, Ireland, Scotland, India, and many other nations have lived under British oppression. Plenty of forced labor, and taxation without representation involved too. So is Brittain evil?
I'm not saying the Confederation's is perfect, no government is. But the missions you do for the Confeds don't fit in with a evil, heartless, tyrannical government.**
This mostly sums up my opinion of the Civil War. The Confederation is not perfect, but it is not nearly as bad as the Rebels say it is, and it's certainly better than the Rebellion.
------------------ David Arthur Talon Plugin for Classic EV: (url="http://"http://members.aol.com/darthur1/talon-ev/")http://members.aol.c...thur1/talon-ev/(/url)
First Ill defend my country, then the Rebellion.
Someone said the USA gained independance because they were fighting for a good cause. I was about to answer that was the France who helped but Loki said so before me. Thanks, Loki. You said too that we would be upset if ever an US soldier would kill a Chinese in France; yes, we would, and we would please USA to kill Chinese on open sea.
Cable_guy said: **and the rebels to the allies (except France... they did nothing).
**
HOW THE HELL CAN YOU SAY THAT? It seems theres only Americans and a bit of Englishmen to argue here, so I will defend the honour of France: We have made what we could have made, and more; thats only because you both are past seas that you havent been invaded. We were ruled by bad politicians that didnt have the idea of attacking Germany and did not prepare for the war, thats why France has been invaded. And once we were invaded, what could we do? Resist. We resisted. My grand-father in june 40 hasnt even had the possibility of fighting, he were already surrounded by Nazis forces. He was captured. He escaped. He was a resistant. Resistance helped when Americans landed on France (moreover you owed us that, remember La Fayette) by cutting supplies damaging the railways, they liberated all the southwest of France without an American, they helped knowing the Atlantic wall. You may say that you have come to liberate France and that costed you much soldiers. I agree. But you couldnt have landed directly in Germany, it would have been pratically impossible, and costed you much more soldiers. So France was useful as a base for you to attack Hitler. Its a pity that there were so much collaborators, but there would also have some in United Kingdom if it had fallen. You couldnt dispise France that way. JE SUIS FRANCAIS ET FIER DE LETRE! Okay, argument over.
You have talked about the relationship between pirates and the rebellion. I will tell you the plausible story of EV before EV:
At the beginning of the rebellion, when planets begun freeing themselves under the banner of the Rebellion, many pirates joined them, because they were pirates not by evilness, but because they wanted to be against the feds; they formed the first forces of the rebellion. Moreover there were pirates, while being free and not directly in the rebellion, that were associated to rebel operations against the Confederacy. But that not lasted very long (approximately 5 years) because pirates wanted to plunder ships, while the rebels wanted to finish them off as quickly as possible. But, still, the Rebels didnt attacked pirates, they were always friends. 8 or 7 years before we come into the universe (reminder : we come 15 years after the rebellion started) the Confederacy understood that even if they crushed the Rebellion with the remaining fleet of the great war (the one that now defends Earth, Luna, Stardock Alpha, Mars and Ruby) the Rebellion would start again from another point (these far away systems are hard to keep), then the Confederacy would crush it again, then the Rebellion would restart, etc and eventually the fleet would be exhausted and the Confederacy would loose (when you build ships to defend humanity, you work better than building ships to kill you far-away friends, so the Confederacy couldnt have kept up with the Rebels). So the Confederacy (they are not as dumb as you may believe ) evacuated all these far away systems the rebellion hasnt already freed, forming much of the current independant worlds (very few are, like Levo, free since the beginning) that have not for the most part joined the rebellion because they believed that they freed themselves, and the Confederacy concentrated their forces on the current Confederate worlds (and let some of their ships to Ruby, that is here because it must stay a secret for the Confederacy population), hoping to defend themselves until the war get stuck. Thats why the rebels do not capture one planet while we play (furthermore the independat worlds barrier makes attacks more problematic, as it is perfect for defense), thats why the situation is described by no end is in sight. But the plan had a problem : to maintain their image of crime repressors, the Confederacy still needed to strike the pirates in their coves, which was very difficult because of the rebel systems to cross and the distance between Confederate worlds and pirates worlds. Thats why the Confederacy made many speeches and statements to denounce the Rebellion ally of the crime. Furthermore therre were some problems between the Rebellion and the pirates : the Rebellion hires independant captains to move good from one world to one another, and if a pirate incidentally plunder a ship with rebellion godds, he should give them back to the rebellion and he is forgived. But some greedy pirates stole these goods and didnt give them back to the Rebellion. It caused many problems between the Rebellion and the pirates and the Rebellion, under the pressure of its population and the hired traders, has eventually decided to declare war on pirates. Instantly the Confederacy pratically stopped its attacks against the pirates, and blockaded its worlds against the Rebellion. It has happened approximately 2 or 3 years before we come into the universe.
The rebels systems are less defended than confed ones: it's because the Confederacy uses the former against-alien fleet to defend their planets, and the Confederacy is more on the defensive, while the Rebellion has just a starting fleet, is more on the offensive, and less fears a domination by pirates.
Someone said the Rebellion has not all the destroyer it may want, because CDX Starworks sell them to it. Its false! The rebellion builds destroyer itself, and only the design was based on these of the Argosy, given by defecting CDX Starworks engineers.
And, at last, here is what I said about Geneva Conventions: (from here, I'm inventing) The Geneva conventions were trown away during the Great War against the aliens, because aliens, of course, didn't know them so it was impossible for the Humans to follow them, while the aliens don't. Just as the Rebellion began, the confederacy tried to make some new Geneva conventions; they were called "new Britain conventions", and they were clearly biaised: it interdicted to attack freighters until the attacking party was able to prouve they were ferrying weapons or war-related cargo, which is pratically impossible; it interdicted assasinating until war activities of the assasinated were prouved, etc,etc The rebellion never followed these conventions, and were right to do so, and quickly the confederacy didn't follow them too.
ZP
------------------ Never underestimate the self-esteem of a French.
------------------ M'enfin! Y'a personne qui parle français ici?
Alright, I take back what i said about the french being useless... partially. The french resistance, well, I take my hat off to those guys, they did a brilliant job, all credit to them, especially when you consider that France became Nazi-run at that point. But the truth is that France, as a country, was about as good as Italy when it came to fighting. What sort of dumb-ass country lines up all their guns in a row, and then lets their opponents come round the sides? Come on, if that isn't dumb then I don't know what is. The leaders of your country were useless, and when Churchill said that France was "nothing but a nation of shopkeepers" he was right. Thank god he didn't let any of the french leaders in on the battle plans, god knows what might have happened. I don't have anything against the French; it's just that I went to Paris and nearly got killed by one of the rubbish drivers there (there are quite a few; never drive round paris, it's hell on earth). Actually I do... I hate your language. I had to spend 3 years learning all your verbs, with 'ie', 'er' and 're', plus the endings, irregular verbs, different sentence structure. Why can't you all just speak English? As for the rebels, I don't see why you hate them. Yes, maybe it was started up by pirates, but you need to have respect for anything that can grow to the strength that it currently is whilst surrounded by feds. And as for the Confed cruiser dodging missiles..."I don't fink so!" It would take total concentration, and I think that 200 missile hits would cripple anything. Look, 1 missile = 1% of damage. Therefore, 200 missiles = 200%. Therefore, fed or rebel is crippled. But the rebel cruiser can twist, turn, weave, run away from them. Missiles, torpedoes, you could avoid them all. And as for human vs human, in a fed vs rebel cruiser battle, I'd load up on space bombs. You wouldn't stand a chance ;).
------------------
Don't you think I spent time learning English? I admit, french is really difficult: our english teacher, to open our eyes, has made us understand how difficult only the french verb "aller" is to use. But please think a bit to the non-engish-as-a-first-language ones speaking here: what would you think if you needed to know French or German to argue here? I don't hate the rebels! I love them! I told the stories so as to show why the rebels and pirates did not attack each other while there were Confederates, but eventually attack each other once the 'fed is destroyed. Yes, some car users may be very dangerous in France. Yes, we are the Europpean country with the most deaths on the road. I'm not proud of it.
I forgive you for what you've said. Shall we make peace?
I never had a problem with you, Zacha, because you support the rebels, but there's another pro-confed french guy... but yeah, peace it is. Just don't expect me to start talking French. Or German, another language I've been taught. Besides, seeing as so many people speak english, can't it just be made a standard language throughout the world? Then, things like Aller, which I never, EVER want to speak about again, would be consigned to the language wastebin. A good thing, I think most people who have had to learn french with agree. But don't expect me to ever go to Paris again, alright?
Originally posted by cable_guy: Then, things like Aller, which I never, EVER want to speak about again, would be consigned to the language wastebin. A good thing, I think most people who have had to learn french with agree.
Just remember, while we may have trouble learning French (or German, or Italian, or Spanish, or any other language), it's nothing compared to the trouble the French, the Germans, the Italians, the Spanish, and everyone else have if they want to learn English. It really is the least intuitive language in the world, and it would be unreasonable to try to force everyone to use it.
Considering that english is the most widely spoken language in the world, I think it's perfectly fair to expect people to learn it. I'm tempted to go further, but I don't want to get on the wrong side of anyone. Hang on.... wasn't this post about rebels, not the french language?
Actually Chinese and Spanish are ahead of English. But I agree that English is better. We have about five conjugations maximum for each verb. Spanish, French, and the other Romance languages have 45. So what if we have no rules that we follow anyway? Its a more creative language. All major inventions of the past 2-3 centuries were made by users of the English language. And whats up with accents. If I hear hablo and habló they are two different things yet I cant really tell a difference between the two.
------------------ "You have committed a fatal error and your existence must be terminated." Windows error message.
Originally posted by cable_guy: **Alright, I take back what i said about the french being useless... partially. The french resistance, well, I take my hat off to those guys, they did a brilliant job, all credit to them, especially when you consider that France became Nazi-run at that point. But the truth is that France, as a country, was about as good as Italy when it came to fighting. **
Cable-boy, try studying WWII military history sometime, before dissing someone's military.
Take me, a student of this history.
In hindsight, the Maginot line was a dumb idea - military strategy had evolved beyond static warfare. But the bosses decided that "this was what we do!"
Try the following:
Logically, we must also assume that Germany had pathetic armed forces because they attacked Russia and lost.
And the American army didn't want to fight for 2 years!!!!
And the Russians retreated for months before counterattacking.
----- It wasn't the army, genius - it was the leadership.
And France has by no means had the monopoly on stupid leaders and generals.
Cheers, ElG7
------------------ KIRK: Very funny, Scotty - now beam down my clothes! (url="http://"http://www.AmbrosiaSW.com/webboard/Forum10/HTML/002301.html")Darkest Hour An EV/O Saga(/url) (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/webboard/Forum10/HTML/002253.html")Slow-reading Story(/url) (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/cgi-bin/vftp/dl-redirect.pl?path=evo/guides&file;=TechFolder.sit")Captain Canardley Ableson's Technical Guide to the EV/O Universe(/url)
It's cable_GUY, guap.
Don't you think I know my history. I study it afterall, so shut up.
And how could you logically assume that Germany had a weak army? Did no-one notice what Hitler was doing? Yes, they got crushed by Russia in the end, but they got bloody far before they were halted. In hindsight, attacking the east was one of the greatest blunders in WWII. What would have happened if they had instead concentrated their forces to the west, against britain? They would have eventually invaded england, which would mean that they pretty much controlled the whole of europe. Then south, through Africa, and after that, west through russia towards japan. Can you imagine what might have happened? Chances are they wouldn't get that far, because an empire that over-expands will eventually crumble (e.g. Roman Empire).
I do know history... at least how it's taught o me, and what sources tell me. History gets warped over time, and 55 years on, everyone has a different view of what happened.
But didn't the french notice the gaps around the side?
Actually, they never would have been able to invade England. After they screwed up their chance after Dunkirk Operation Sea Lion didn't have a chance. The British had complete naval control of the English Channel as surface fleets go and the RAF would have gotten in airborne attack. But anyway the only reason that the Russian won was the weather, Hitlers leadership, and sheer numbers. Losing 10 guys for every german you kill isn't exactly good .
It wasn't the actual organisation of the russian attack I was questionning, just the choice of fighting on multiple fronts at the same time. Surely taking control of things in the west first would have been a better idea?
Originally posted by cable_guy: **And as for the Confed cruiser dodging missiles..."I don't fink so!" It would take total concentration, and I think that 200 missile hits would cripple anything. Look, 1 missile = 1% of damage. Therefore, 200 missiles = 200%. Therefore, fed or rebel is crippled. But the rebel cruiser can twist, turn, weave, run away from them. Missiles, torpedoes, you could avoid them all. And as for human vs human, in a fed vs rebel cruiser battle, I'd load up on space bombs. You wouldn't stand a chance;). **
Absolutely correct, and whoever thinks so really needs a bit of extra IQ (no offense). But it's almost true, the Rebel Destroyer and Cruiser are one of the fastest warships in the galaxy! In fact, there is absolutely no ship of the Rebel Cruisers or Destroyers size that can outrun it! The Rebel Destroyer is even faster than the Corvette (which was called a cross between a fighter and a light warship in the description).
------------------ To Escape Velocity: Nova and Beyond! -------------- Millennium. Its coming, prepare for it. Coming to the (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiaSW.com/games/ev/chronicles.html")EV Chronicles(/url).
EIG7, What the hell are you talking about? The Germans were not weak, they were dam strong they were defieted by Russians because Russia put millions of poeple in there who got killed fighting :mad:, And they never retreated they didnt have the forses positioned there. Most of the forses were around the chinese border awaiting the attak. After they learned that there was not giong to be an attack they moved the forses form the border to the city Stalingrad. Thats were they intersepted the Germans and had a major blood bath that lasted for about 4 months :mad:.Millions of Russian people died on those battle grownds. Germans were not weak because they were defieted by Russians, whats weak is your brain :mad:. It was a clash of super powers(many countries contributed to russia). No one was weak, no one retreated. If Russia lost all of asia would have falled under German ruel.With the factories in Russia, Germany could have been unstopable. GERMANY WAS NOT WEAK!!!!! :mad: I'm Russian I should know. So dont be throwing stuff like that around.OK!
------------------ if it dosent doesn't squiel its not worth killing
Nothing against the russians but...what factories? At that time the russians were under communist rule which fed up the country so much that they were producing a lot of s which fell apart if you looked at it wrong. The only decent thing to come out of russia were the T-34's and the other tanks. Which still got the crap beaten out of them by th Konistigers.
------------------ Programming today is a race between software build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning.--Rich Cook
They hat tons of factories in Russia, and so what if they where comunist. Even now they produse many of the best choppers,planes ,tanks and missles.And "fell apart" like what?
Originally posted by Captain Carnotaur: **Absolutely correct, and whoever thinks so really needs a bit of extra IQ (no offense). But it's almost true, the Rebel Destroyer and Cruiser are one of the fastest warships in the galaxy! In fact, there is absolutely no ship of the Rebel Cruisers or Destroyers size that can outrun it! The Rebel Destroyer is even faster than the Corvette (which was called a cross between a fighter and a light warship in the description).
The corvette has the same speed as the destroyer (300). Being fast is great for attacks, but less so for defense. If 1100 patrol ships (half the mars fleet) and 2200 confed frigates (the entire stardock alpha fleet) with a hundred marines on each frigate showed up at, say Clotho Prime, what would you do?
Run and let them land? You must dislodge them eventually, which will be harder later.
Stand up to them before they land? Where will you get the ships? The total of rebel defense fleets on all rebel planets is something like 2000 ships, 9/10ths mantas. I'll give 400 rebel cruisers and an additional 2000 ships of the same composition as the defense fleets. In a straight battle-- the entire rebel fleet vs the stardock alpha+mars fleet-- the rebels might win. In this situation, the confeds do not have to fight the rebel fleet. They need to land on the planet and drop marines, provide air support to the marines, and prevent rebel bombardment while the marines conquer the planet. The rebels have a dire need to kill the confeds, and quickly.
Let them land, then try to bomb them on the ground? The confed ships wont all be on the ground at the same time. The situation above obtains.
Cut off supply routes? That might force the fleet to withdraw, but the 2.2 million marines are still there and have a planet to hide in. This won't work if the confeds capture the shipyard on clotho prime intact-- they will be self sustaining.
As none of the rebel planets boast a population above a billion, fielding sufficient troops to recapture the planet, or even to defend against this attack, will be hard.
The Russian weapons are crap compared to american. A couple of F-14's or -22's could take on several russian squadrons. The M1A1 beat the crap out of the Iraqi army which was full of the best russian equipment. The Phoenix is the best air-air missile and the U.S. is the one with T.V. guided and anti-radar and laser guided missiles, something that the Russians conspicously lack a large amount of even if they happen to have laser guided. The AK-47 and -74 suck compared to the M-16, -14 and brand new M-4. The A-10 beats the **** out of anything on the ground. And so what if you had factories? History lesson here, they sucked. They were obssesed with quantity over quality. Quality control was none existant. And frankly Russian equipment was not taken care of the best. I would never trust my life to one. Heck, a squadron or two of F-22's and B-2's could eleminate the whole freaken Russian Air Force with less effort than it takes to piss.
Which brings us back to the piont. Who defeated the Germans?
It was the americans. The russians required Allied help in order to hold the germans back. The daily fleets of B-17's and B-29's smacked germany's factories so that they weren't able to support their armies as well. Also after normandy, Germany was fighting on a two front war and couldn't hold back the millions that stalin led to be slaughtered. And if Operation Market Garden had worked (idiot CO's) the war would have been done a year early with americans in Berlin first. BTW, what did russia do in the Pacific theater? Nada. It was all america over there.