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Hey Captain Carnotaur,here are the definitions of memo and essay according to the American Heritage Dictionary. memorandum 1. A short note written as a reminder. 2. A written record or communication, as in a business office. 3. Law. A short written statement outlining the terms of an agreement, a transaction, or a contract. 4. A business statement made by a consignor about a shipment of goods that may be returned. 5. A brief, unsigned diplomatic communication. essay 1. a. A short literary composition on a single subject, usually presenting the personal view of the author. b. Something resembling such a composition. 2. A testing or trial of the value or nature of a thing. 3. An initial attempt or endeavor, especially a tentative attempt.
------------------ In three words I can sum up all I've learned about life;it goes on -Robert Frost
Pure Confed propoganda!
Quote
Originally posted by Loki the evil and annoying and misguided Confederate scum of the galaxy: **Pure Rebel propoganda!
A: No evidence of slavery. The Rebels are just sociopaths who wanted a handout.**
Oh, so are you saying forced labor ain't slavery or even close you it? Okay, slavery is a bit worse than forced labor, but overral it's the same story: the Confeds forced the outcoloniss (rebels) to do labor when they didn't want to. Now, I want this question answered: If YOU were one of the outer colonists, being forced to do something you didn't want to do such as forced labor, what would YOU do?
Originally posted by Loki the evil and annoying and misguided Confederate scum of the galaxy: B: Rebels are communists. They use the color Red, as does China, and the former Soviet Union.
Oh, so are you saying that red cars are communist? What about red colored iMacs? Once again,
Originally posted by Loki the evil and annoying and misguided Confederate scum of the galaxy: Rebels commit murder and piracy at every available opportunity. Notice how a pirate vessel will attack a Confederation ship over a Rebel ship, given the choice.
That's because both the Rebels and Pirates are both fighting a main enemy; the Confeds. The Pirates hate everyone, but they hate the Confeds more.
And how do you know the Rebels murder and piracy against civillians? If you are talking about them doing it against the Confeds, then you are a horrible military commander who, in a war, would loose immeasurably.
Originally posted by Loki the evil and annoying and misguided Confederate scum of the galaxy: The Confederation could easily strike any Rebel held system with minimal assets, and win. The reasons they haven't are quite simple. The Confederation is in a defensive posture, not an offensive one. They are obviously seeking a diplomatic resolution, otherwise they wouldn't be sending government officials to independent worlds in Executive Transports with minimal escorts. Those escorts are meant to defend against random pirate attacks, not a dedicated Rebel attack, or a hired assassin.
No, it's because the Confeds are too stupid and thick headed to even try to make an offensive. And do you know another reason why they are on the defensive? BECAUSE THE REBELS ARE PUSHING THEM BACK SO HARD THE CONFEDS CAN'T STOP THEM! And you also showed another stupid and dumb point of the Confeds; they don't realize that they should give their executive transports more protection against all these Rebels and assassins.
Originally posted by Loki the evil and annoying and misguided Confederate scum of the galaxy: E: If the Confederation chose to end the Rebellion, they could. The Rebel occupied worlds are too spread out to support each other, their systems are too spread out to send reinforcements in a timely manner. Systems of particular vulnerability: Ursa, Agena, Adhara, Sirgil, Spica, Guiron, Zigra and Apollo. The Conderation's being nice
Sirgil is a major Rebel base, Guiron and Zigra help defend each other, if Apollo was captured the Confeds would loose again because the Rebels and Pirates would surround them, Adhara is another major base, as is Spica, which if the Confeds ever took over the Pirates would also cream them.
However, Capella is extremely vulnerable because the main ships that go there are: Executive Transports and Luxury Liners. Not only that, it has a small defense fleet, and will soon be captured by the glorious Rebellion.
Originally posted by Loki the evil and annoying and misguided Confederate scum of the galaxy: F: The Rebellion's chain of command is obviously far too disorganized to launch any serious attack. An example of this is Ruby, a valuable asset of the Confederation, and right next door are four Rebel occupied systems. The only logical conclusion is that they don't have the ability to take Ruby.
That's only because Matt Burch felt sorry for the Confeds in all their stupidity and misery, and since they were loosing BIG TIME, he decided to place this one small little Confed planet there.
Originally posted by Loki the evil and annoying and misguided Confederate scum of the galaxy: **Face it, the Rebels are little more than communists, willing to go to any means, including the murder of civillians, to achieve their goals. **
Oh, I didn't seen anything in EV-Edit or Res-Edit about the Rebels having two enemies, the Confeds and the Independents. Face it, the Confeds are a lot more mean than the Rebels.
-Captain Carnotaur
------------------ To Escape Velocity: Nova and Beyond! -------------- Millennium. Its coming, prepare for it. Coming to the (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiaSW.com/games/ev/chronicles.html")EV Chronicles(/url).
(This message has been edited by Captain Carnotaur (edited 03-16-2001).)
So, it's no good thinking just about AI, huh? No, not if you're a rebel. Look at it this way, if it's human vs human in a real life situation, the pilot will take advantage of any strengths of his or her craft. So as a rebel, I would concentrate on the manoeverability, which is well above that of comparable confed crafts. For example, in a cruiser vs cruiser 1-on-1 with AI, who wins? 8 out of 10 it's the feds, where they just run at each other, giving plenty of time for the fed to turn 180 degrees and bring the neutron cannons to bear. Result; shield strength of feds cruiser pays off. However, in human vs. human, the first thing that the rebel would do is stay out of turret range, allowing the patrol ships to come to him or her, then releasing the mantas to take them out, whilst taking out any patrol ships that stray within gunning range. Therefore, the manoeverable ships are taken out, and it's one-on-one. Mantas redock, then take off again with a full compliment of missiles launched at the fed cruiser. It will fire torpedoes at your cruiser, but these are easily avoided because of the manoeverability. However, the fed will not be able to avoid your missiles. Shields now down to, at the most, 75%. This is enough of a headstart for the rebl cruiser to take down the fed with guns and heavy rockets, making sure to stay behind the fed, well away from the neutron cannons. Of course, if we take this beyond stock ships straight from the ship yard and into upgraded ships, then it's an even more comfortable victory for the rebels. Quite simply, remove missiles and heavy rockets. Replace with 2 torpedo launchers and torpedoes. Add all 3 engine upgrades and a missile jammer. Ship can now kill the fed cruiser without even engaging in turret warfare, just launching the torpedoes from a distance and then avoiding the fed's retaliation. You could have a million torpedoes in your fed cruiser, and I could avoid and outrun every single one of them. As long as I had a good supply of strong coffee. Personally, I like getting up close and personal with my opponent. After taking down the fed's patrol ships, I would fire off a few waves of torpedoes, and avoid any coming for me. Then I would wade into battle, safe in the knowledge that I would have added 4 shield capacitors and 3 layers of armor, plus the 4th turret (why doesn't the rebellion provide the 4th turret as standard? It really would help). Alternatively, I could use space bombs :). But then that isn't fair, it just doesn't give your opponent enough chance to react, or to get out of the way. If I was in the Satori system and I launched a spacebomb, and a fed cruiser in Sol had been radioed to say that I had released it and it was heading straight for them, it still wouldn't be able to get out of the way in time... unless a little shuttlecraft got in the way. Face it... in a real life situation, it's easier to beat a fed cruiser with a rebel cruiser than it is the other way round.
------------------
Face it. More people like the Rebels.
Proof:
1. On my Escape Velocity ship poll the results were for Confeds and Rebel ships:
Confed Cruiser:5 Rebel Cruiser:19 Rebel Destroyer:11 Confed Frigate:1 Rebel Manta:2
2. (url="http://"http://htmlgear.lycos.com/poll/control.poll?u=me_myself_and_graham&i;=1&a;=vote")http://htmlgear.lyco...aham&i=1&a=vote(/url)
3. (url="http://"http://htmlgear.lycos.com/poll/control.poll?u=me_myself_and_graham&i;=2&a;=vote")http://htmlgear.lyco...aham&i=2&a=vote(/url) Look at the votes for the Manta, Confed Paotrol ship and Confed Gunship. The Manta has more votes that both of the Confed ships combined!
4. (url="http://"http://pub40.ezboard.com/fthecatacombfrm14.showMessage?topicID=6.topic&pollResults;=on")http://pub40.ezboard...&pollResults=on(/url)
5. (url="http://"http://pub58.ezboard.com/fgamesandcartoonsfrm23.showMessage?topicID=4.topic&pollResults;=on")http://pub58.ezboard...&pollResults=on(/url)
As you can see, Rebels are more likable.
------------------ Long live the Rebellion! --------------------- (url="http://"http://www.pautsch.com/nova6")Visit my cool EV website!(/url)
Well said, Nova!
My, so much heat, so little light...
I am arguing about people and politics not AIs. Evidence in this discussion is from any text or stats (ship performance, planet defence, and the like) available in an unmodified EV 1.0.5.
Assuming that the confeds are stupid is a mistake. In general, you should not assume your enemy is stupid-- he might be pretending stupidity to throw you off (King George W, of the US for example). Assuming anything about your enemy's abilities in the absence of evidence will give problems. Evidence of confed intelligence is that they managed to conduct the slavery and oppression that you accuse them of without being immediately overthrown.
cable_guy said: **And how would you set up a bloackade between north and south right the way from east to west? All the rebels would have to do is to scrape together 3, maybe 4 cruisers and then find out where you are at your weakest. The resistance at this point could then be destroyed. **
The idea of the Confeds blockade is not to completely stop all shipping all the time, but to create tactical delays for the Rebels so that Confed strategic objectives can be achieved. An example: Suppose the confeds put enough cruisers into Capella and Rigel to prevent any rebel shipping from passing through those systems. The confeds then pull ships from Antares, Sirius, Pollux and Deneb to attack Sirgil. The northern rebels will be forced to take a very long route to relieve any attack against sirgil. Most likely, they will not arrive in time to prevent heavy losses to the Sirgil rebels. Alternatively, the rebels can break the blockade but that will cost heavily, and works in the favor of the confeds, who can replace people and ships more easily than the rebels.
cable_guy said: **Also, the Rebels have a major tactical advantage in that Sirgil can serve as a second HQ in the unlikely event that Palshife should come under fire. Plus, the major outfitting stellar is Akio, well out of the way of attack. Earth, Luna, mars and Stardock Alpha are all highly exposed. 1)They are all in the same system, and 2) only 2 jumps from safety, and one jump is through the weak New Sahara, where little resistance would be encountered **
Out of the way does not equal safe. An exposed position is not a vulnerable position. Earth alone is defended by over 2000 frigates. No rebel planet has anything close to this.
Any attack causing a planet to change hands is not likely to be overlooked. New Sahara can expect relief from Sol.
Akio is also far from support in case of a confed attack.
cable_guy said: **And so a massive fleet could assemble right next to Sol, easily laying waste to all the planets with an air-to-ground chemical weapon. Hence warship and outfit production stops, and the confederation is crippled irreparably. **
Planet-scale destruction will require at least nuclear weapons, and probably antimatter, neither of which are available in EV. You will also have to defeat the planet's defense fleet first which undoubtedly detected you entering the system. If the defense fleet commander saw he was outgunned, he (should) send a ship for help in the direction opposite your arrival vector.
cable_guy said, and Captain Carnotaur agreed: **As for ships, the frigate forms "the backbone of the confederate fleet". That's quoted from EV you know. So, if the frigate is beaten 6 out of 8 (from a fair start, I'd say more like 7 from 10), doesn't that mean that the fleet has a broken back? Since the frigates are the main part of the fleet, not the cruisers, it's these battles that really matter. **
Go study the history of world wars one and two. In world war one, the preferred tactic for capturing fortified positions was to attack with overwhelming numbers. In world war two, the Germans built better ships and planes, but were defeated by numbers and lack of supplies. In the pacific, the Japanese had it all over the US at the beginning, but literally ran out of gas. Not to mention that the US outproduced them in ships and planes.
cable_guy said, and Captain Carnotaur agreed: **Plus, trying to separate north and south rebels would be dangerous and costly. It would easily be possible to set up a counter attack on the same system from both sides (north and south) and the rebels will win. **
Actually, the rebels will have to do something like this to defeat the confeds. However, I do not believe they have the ship-building industry to support it. If they tried it, they will suffer the fate of the Japanese in WWII.
cable_guy said, and Captain Carnotaur agreed: **Oh, and if I commanded the rebel fleet when your confed fleet blockaded, I'd destroy you. Even if it just came down to cruisers 1 on 1, it would still be possible to win, but the rebels often lose these battles in the game because they utilise tactics where all the fed cruiser's strong points come into play. They just go straight at each other, allowing the feds to fire off the neutron cannons. If I were to be in a cruiser, I'd utilise my advantages; speed and manoeverability. With the manoeverability upgrades to both cruisers, the fed still can't lose missiles and torpedoes. The Rebel Cruiser can. So all I have to do is destroy all the patrol ships (leave it to the mantas), and then circle the cruiser, dodging all the torpedoes it can throw at me, and missiles if it wants. Then I launch all of my missiles from a distance, until I'm empty. Then, I come up behind the cruiser, letting loose with proton turrets and my heavy rockets, staying behind the cruiser all the time. Victory is almost assured. **
In game play, the upgraded Confed Cruiser can lose torpedos and missiles, but it requires judicious use of afterburners. I sometimes accept the hits just to get the sucker into range more quickly... But, as I said above, I do not consider the AI an authority on ship performance.
Let see here, you (at palshife) get a message that confed forces are massing near sirgil. You anticipate the blockade at capella, arm your cruisers with extra torpedos and rockets and attack capella. Now while you are busy at capella, sirgil is under attack. If you win at capella, I withdraw from sirgil before you arrive and reestablish the blockade at capella so you cannot return by the same route. Now, to assemble your fleet, you probably pulled ships out of spica or turin.
The independent planets will support whichever government gives them more stuff (eg, money and technology). An analog today is all those "allies" of the US. The allies all together collect $52 billion a year from the US ranging from ~4 billion for the Isreali military to the Peace corps volunteers' work in Africa.
My reply is not done yet, but I have to leave. Read you tomorrow. Flame on.
There's nothing to it Rebel's rock.
Originally posted by magicianeer: Go study the history of world wars one and two. In world war one, the preferred tactic for capturing fortified positions was to attack with overwhelming numbers. In world war two, the Germans built better ships and planes, but were defeated by numbers and lack of supplies. In the pacific, the Japanese had it all over the US at the beginning, but literally ran out of gas. Not to mention that the US outproduced them in ships and planes.
Then you have just betrayed the Confederation and pointed out a major advantage for the Rebellion. You forgot that, not only can the Rebel Destroyer always beat a Confed Frigate, the Rebel Destroyer is also cheaper, smaller, and easier to build than the Confed Frigate. Now, not only can the Rebels attack in numbers, like you pointed out, the things they make swarms of are better than the Confed Equivilent!
And what is all this talk about Rigel? Rigel isn't in the way of anything, it's in the middle of the core worlds. A blockade in Capella makes sense, but, Rigel?!? Just another reason why Confed supporteres can be so desperate to aid the dying Confederation that they overlook the fact that Rigel Is in the middle of the Core worlds and a blockade in that system would only block Confed traders.
Long live the Rebellion!
Originally posted by Captain Carnotaur: Oh, so are you saying forced labor ain't slavery or even close you it? Okay, slavery is a bit worse than forced labor, but overral it's the same story: the Confeds forced the outcoloniss (rebels) to do labor when they didn't want to. Now, I want this question answered: If YOU were one of the outer colonists, being forced to do something you didn't want to do such as forced labor, what would YOU do?
Even if you do believe the obviously exaggerated Rebel propaganda in the intro text, the fact remains that this is a description of the past. Whatever the governments started out as, at the time that EV actually takes place, the Rebellion is the government that destroys defenseless civilian ships.
------------------ David Arthur Talon Plugin for Classic EV: (url="http://"http://members.aol.com/darthur1/talon-ev/")http://members.aol.c...thur1/talon-ev/(/url)
Originally posted by David Arthur: **Even if you do believe the obviously exaggerated Rebel propaganda in the intro text, the fact remains that this is a description of the past. Whatever the governments started out as, at the time that EV actually takes place, the Rebellion is the government that destroys defenseless civilian ships.
**
Then if the Confederation truely has changed as you say it has, then they should try to make a peace treaty. As far as I see it, the Confeds should try to stop fighting, and give the Rebels something like 2 billion or so credits for damages caused by the Confederate military and the damages done to the many people who were enslaved by the Confeds.
And, if you say that the intro text is all Rebel propoganda, then you realize that EV is a game, it has a creator, and that creator is Matt Burch and the Ambrosia crew. Thus, it is reasonable to assume that the people who created EV side with the Rebels.
Originally posted by Captain Carnotaur: **Then you have just betrayed the Confederation and pointed out a major advantage for the Rebellion. You forgot that, not only can the Rebel Destroyer always beat a Confed Frigate, the Rebel Destroyer is also cheaper, smaller, and easier to build than the Confed Frigate. Now, not only can the Rebels attack in numbers, like you pointed out, the things they make swarms of are better than the Confed Equivilent!:p
Hard to build things require a more complex factory to build them. The confeds have the large facility for it. You have assumed that the rebels have something equivilent to the Terran Naval Yards to build rebel destroyers. There is no evidence of this in the game. More likely, they buy Argosys and refit them as they become available. CDX starworks sells their Argosy ship to others also, so the rebels are not getting all of the destroyers that they could.
If rebel ships heading south decide to bypass Capella, the next shortest route is through Rigel (perhaps Matar would work better than Rigel, but ships at rigel can reinforce capella and vice versa).
I dont favor one side over the other. Its just that my analysis of the situation is at odds with yours, especially with respect to rebel/confed strategy.
(This message has been edited by magicianeer (edited 03-17-2001).)
... My reply continued
Except from the intro: <snip> **The Great War was upon us.
But we beat them. The human race banded together into a powerful confederation of worlds, whose combined military strength was enough to turn the tide of the War.
Within eight years, the enigmatic alien marauders were extinct.
But the elite and powerful members of the Confederation were reluctant to give up their power after the end of the War, and began a rule of oppression and tyranny, aided by the powerful Confederation Navy.
They exploited the outer colony planets for the benefit of the wealthy Core Worlds, stripping them of their resources and coercing the colonists into forced labor.
This reign of terror lasted for fifteen years; then the insurrection began.
The outer colonies, weary of the ConfederationΒs practices of exploiting their land and denying them any representation in the Senate, formed an organized rebellion aimed at destroying their oppressors.
In time, their pitiful forces grew, with the help of sympathetic corporations, into a formidable navy.
The galactic civil war still rages on, and no end is in sight. ** <snip>
Captain Carnotaur said: **Are you kidding? Come on, you are forgetting something. Before, the Confeds had a lot more planets during the great war. After it, a lot of planets left the Confederation and/or joined the Rebellion. ** Later, Captain Carnotaur said: **Problem 2: The Confeds were obviously hurt badly by the alien war, in which probably over half their fleet was destroyed. So, they resorted to force, hard labor, and slavery to make them a large, and tyrannical, government. However, the Rebels fought back. So, the Confeds may not have as many ships as everyone thinks they have. **
According to the introduction text, the Confederation did not exist before the great war. It was formed in response to it, and emerged from the war with a powerful navy.
Captain Carnotaur said: **So you are saying that one or two frigates, a few gunboats, a couple of patrol ships, and 20 Luxury Liners and Executive Transports can stop a Rebel battlefleet of Cruisers, Destroyers, and Mantas? No blockade as I see it, Capella was always a slaughtering ground for the Rebels. **
No, most of the time the rebels will be able to move through capella without substantial problems. The blockade will be established only when the confed feels it advantageous to divide the rebel fleet, and will be removed when the advantage has been exploited (or lost).
A selective blockade could be set-- military ships allowed to pass through, but freighters carrying munitions southward would be detained thus creating spot shortages.
Establishing a blockade in a system that you do not control is problematic because the system's defense fleet can assist blockade runners, even if the defense fleet is not strong enough to break the blockade.
For alternative tactics (especially the strike-on-station) see the Assumptions section of the Pale website. http://www.fortuneci...l/astrology/90/
Captain Carnotaur said: **Actually, as I see it, the Confeds have a lot of trouble keeping the Rebels contained. The Rebels would easily wipe them out. **
See the introduction, particularly the part about "no end is in sight". The rebel navy is described as "formidable", and was once "pitiful". My interpretation is that the rebel navy was far less than the confed navy, and is now improved, but still inferior to, the confed navy.
You seem to look at the map and see the rebels surrounding and trapping the confeds. The situation is more akin to the rebels being locked out of the core -- "denying them any representation in the Senate" -- and trying to get back in by defeating the confeds.
Captain Carnotaur said: **No, it means they can use the Pirates to their advantage to scare off the Confeds strikes, which now have to deal with Rebels and Confeds. Besides, the Pirates almost like the Rebels. In any battle, the Rebels and Pirates would gang up on the Confeds first, then try to destroy each other (in which the Rebels woud win). **
Rebel ships blast pirates whenever they meet. Hang around Darven for a while and see.
The rebels do not have a merchant fleet of their own like the confeds (implied by confed flagged freighters). They must use independent traders or warships for transporting goods. The pirates prey on the independent traders that the rebel planets depend on for commerce.
Hardly the behavior of allies.
The Confeds only have 1 major ship yard, luna. Thats only a small moon and the Rebels have a full planets to make ships, the Cloth ship yard.
The rebels have the mmissle jammer and i havn't seen any confed planets with that.
The Confeds are fighting for control, and the rebels are fighting for life. What happened on the revolutionary war? Britain was supposed to win but the Americans creamed them be cause they were fighting for a cause.
The Rebels don't have to take Sol to kill the Confeds. They can just take systems with trade routes and supply stations to kill them.
Confed ships are POS ships. In the Alien missions I lost the the only Cruiser the confeds could give me. While the Rebels could give me 2 of thier cruisers and both of them survived.
I hjave Taken all confed and indepent systems except Sol and ruby using a fleet of 7 cruisers(mine plus 6 more)
The confeds don't allow sheild rechargers on thier ships or any other but the rebels sell them to anyone and seem to put them on thier ships.(Stupid confeds)
I could put more but can't think of them right now
Confeds are stupid. They would win if they were smarter but thier not so they suck. Rebels are cool!
Tycho Maudd
------------------ If I ever meet myself, I'll hit myself so hard I won't know what hit me.
To Every Single Confed Supporter on this Board: Do you guys read half the stuff I post!?! I mean, in just about EVERY SINGLE REBELS VS. CONFEDS TOPIC, I have constantly asked Confed supporters this question:
What would YOU do if YOU were one of the outer colonists that were enslaved (or, in your pathetic little excuse, "Forced Labor" which means practically the same thing!) what would YOU do?
Now I want this answered! I have NEVER even seen ONE answer to this question by a Confed supporter! Come out and answer it! Or I will assume that you have realize that you would have done the exact same thing as the Rebels did.
Secondly, I want this question answered:
Is slavery, Forced Labor, or whatever bad or is it good?
That is another question I've NEVER seen answered by a Confed supporter.
Originally posted by Captain Carnotaur: **To Every Single Confed Supporter on this Board: Do you guys read half the stuff I post!?! I mean, in just about EVERY SINGLE REBELS VS. CONFEDS TOPIC, I have constantly asked Confed supporters this question:
I don't consider myself a confed supporter, but since I have posted substantial material that supports the confed position, I feel that I must reply.
If I were enslaved, I would look for chances to escape or rebel. Even if its only breaking some equipment, doing a bad job, whatever. Slavery is a bad thing.
The rebels have excellent cause for their war but they have no chance for a near term victory.
For an example of a particularly effective and vicious slave driver, read Verner Vinges Sci-Fi book "A Deepness In the Sky". The main villian is incredible-- several wouldbe liberators are defeated before he is finally toppled. In US history, the life of "Pitchfork" Ben Tillman, father of Jim Crow, is nearly unbelievable.
Originally posted by Tycho Maudd: **The Confeds only have 1 major ship yard, luna. Thats only a small moon and the Rebels have a full planets to make ships, the Cloth ship yard. **
You seem to have overlooked stardock alpha and landfall.
Originally posted by Tycho Maudd: **The rebels have the mmissle jammer and i havn't seen any confed planets with that. **
Just because the confeds wont sell it to you does not mean that they do not have it.
Originally posted by Tycho Maudd: **The Confeds are fighting for control, and the rebels are fighting for life. What happened on the revolutionary war? Britain was supposed to win but the Americans creamed them be cause they were fighting for a cause.
The Rebels don't have to take Sol to kill the Confeds. They can just take systems with trade routes and supply stations to kill them. **
A war of independence would make more sense to me, but the EV introduction (and Captain Carnotaur) state that the Rebels want to completely overthrow the confederation.
Originally posted by Tycho Maudd: **I hjave Taken all confed and indepent systems except Sol and ruby using a fleet of 7 cruisers(mine plus 6 more) **
When you take earth without cheating/bugs you will have done something. Generally, the EV AI sucks.
It's very simple, if I was facing an enemy as overwhelming as the Confederation Navy, a navy powerful enough to defeat the aliens, who decimated the outer colony worlds without breaking a sweat. I would not fight them directly, that's called suicide.
And as far as the forced labor, if it was nearly as forced and controlled, the Rebellion would never have gotten as far as it did, it would've been crushed in the blink of an eye. So obviously it's not a plausible concept for the Confederation to have been so tyrannical and oppressive, oppressive governments don't let their subjects build warships, or even allow them weapons. Yet the same weaponry the Confed Navy uses is available everywhere, so it's not concievable that the Confederation is trully an oppresive, tyrannical government.
Another problem you face with the supposed benevolence and purity of the Rebellion is assassinations, rules of war for quite a long time have prohibited attacking noncombatants (In EV terms this would be the equivalent of a freighter, or Executive Transport) That's called murder, no matter what you do to justify it. These actions are also done in neutral territory, so the Rebels are doing the equivalent of say, a U.S. soldier killing a Chinese politburo member in France. Obviously France would be upset. Usually when a government does this, once the war's over, and if that government loses, they're brought up on war crimes.
Now, if the Rebellion were to only disable the noncombatant vessel, take the government official into custody, and then leave, without killing or otherwise harming the crew or other passengers. That would be perfectly acceptable. And would also be more beneficial, a dead man tells no tails.
And it was French support, not a pure and just cause which won us the war. The cause at the time was not considered especially noble, since a very small percentage of men joined the Colonial Army, or any of the militias.
You overlook something, Carno...
The Confederation is an evil, usurping bunch of aggressors... and independent systems wouldn't stop them if they REALLY wanted to get the Rebellion.
Look at it this way: If they wanted to, they could fake a revolution in any of these independent systems and get "invited" in to keep the peace. I've dominated many an independent system, and I can tell you that a concentrated assault fleet can easily dominate any and all of these systems.
But look at it this way: Right now the Rebellion is the best thing that ever happened to the Confeds. See, let's say your in a Confed system. The Rebels come in fighting, blowing away anything with wings. So naturally, the basic shipowner will cry out for protection. That's where the Confederation comes in.
If the Rebellion was defeated, the Confederation would lose it's biggest reason for existence - protection. Granted, they're evil. (I'm a Rebel Mercenary myself - they pay better.) But you basic Joe Sixpack won't see it that way. He'll see the Rebels ruining his business. He'll see the confeds saving him. Who do you think he'll go for?
That's why the Confeds are OK with the Rebellion.
ElG7
------------------ KIRK: Very funny, Scotty - now beam down my clothes! (url="http://"http://www.AmbrosiaSW.com/webboard/Forum10/HTML/002301.html")Darkest Hour Β An EV/O Saga(/url) (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/webboard/Forum10/HTML/002253.html")Slow-reading Story(/url) (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/cgi-bin/vftp/dl-redirect.pl?path=evo/guides&file;=TechFolder.sit")Captain Canardley Ableson's Technical Guide to the EV/O Universe(/url)
Originally posted by magicianeer: ** Let see here, you (at palshife) get a message that confed forces are massing near sirgil. You anticipate the blockade at capella, arm your cruisers with extra torpedos and rockets and attack capella. Now while you are busy at capella, sirgil is under attack. If you win at capella, I withdraw from sirgil before you arrive and reestablish the blockade at capella so you cannot return by the same route. Now, to assemble your fleet, you probably pulled ships out of spica or turin. **
Well then... if I knew you were attacking sirgil, then there would be no chance that I could get there in time from Palshife. A cruiser takes 3 days to do 1 jump. So it would take weeks to get there. The confederation could easily take out Sirgil by then. However, it also takes a confederate cruiser 3 days to jump. If I were on Sirgil, I would know you were mounting an attack (spies on eart, luna, everywhere etc). It would take 12 days for a confederate fleet involving cruisers to get from sol to sirgil (unless the frigates went in first, but they would be obliterated by sirgil's defences... and there are a lot of them). I could pretty much remove the entire population using the system's defensive forces, and transfer them to, say, topaz, or virgo. The feds jump in, to be greeted by... nothing. I could amass a fleet capable of destroying whichever confederate fleet had jumped in (which would be sent from sirgil's computer, which would see what had jumped in), and then attack from a) the east, towards Topaz, Darkstar etc., and the North, from Pelagon. the feds would be destroyed and Sirgil would be saved. The problem with hyperspace is that it takes so long, so tactics can easily be arranged to counter any force. the same works for rebels. Also, you say that you would blockade capella. Why would I ever go through there? I do not have a death wish. Anyway, I could jump in and immediatly jump out and be able to survive any attack. But I wouldn't go there in the first place. I would consult rebel intelligence to see where forces are massing. If you blockade capella, I'll go round to the south, through New France. If you blockade there, I'll go through Capella. If you blockade both, I'll cut straight through the middle, via Sol. You wouldn't know which route I was taking, making defence a problem, And besides, you couldn't get past Sirgil's defensive fleet... it's huge.
Originally posted by magicianeer: **Go study the history of world wars one and two. In world war one, the preferred tactic for capturing fortified positions was to attack with overwhelming numbers. In world war two, the Germans built better ships and planes, but were defeated by numbers and lack of supplies. In the pacific, the Japanese had it all over the US at the beginning, but literally ran out of gas. Not to mention that the US outproduced them in ships and planes. **
Listen you, I happen to live in England. We were involved in world war I and II from the start. World war I began in 1914, not 1917 as you yanks think, and WWII began in september 1939. I know all about war, and numbers don't always count. EXAMPLE: Battle of Britain, 1940. The germans decide to knock out the RAF in order to destroy any resistance during the invasion. The germans have far superior numbers and outproduce us massively due to the fact that they have far greater resources available... but we won, due to a) superior equipment (spitfires and hurricanes were more than a match for german planes) and b)greater pilots. Unlike America, we don't need vast numbers to win. So don't think you can go around quoting stuff from the world wars, bucko. EXAMPLE 2:Africa Korps, Battle of Northern Africa Germans are advancing on a small fortified port in Egypt. Capturing this fort will give them access to the seas, and increase their supplies considerably. However, even their overwhelming numbers couldn't take the fort. Also in North Africa, the germans engaged the British with superior numbers but were beaten off by Montgomery's forces. EXAMPLE 3:Malta, the most bombed place on Earth During WWII, Malta was allied with Britain, France and (later on...)the US. It destroyed German shipping routes to North Africa. At it's height, only 1 in 4 german supply ships got through. The luftwaffe consistantly blitzed the small island, but it held out, even with virtually no resources and poor equipment. As you can see, strength in numbers is not always true... ...and in WWI, there were no battle plans, except digging trenches and killing thousands each day as they ran at each other, towards machine guns. Airplanes played no real part in the war, and it was constantly a stalemate. Indeed, in this stupid tactic of trench warfare, greater numbers are an advantage. But a change of tactics would have helped. Have I made my point clear? Infact, thinking about it, I think that the Feds can be compared to the Nazis, and the rebels to the allies (except France... they did nothing). For example, the Nazis made people who Hitler didn't like were put into camps.... FORCED LABOUR (ring a bell?). So, all you confederate sympathisers out there, just remember that the guy behind the whole federate outfit probably has a stupid little moustache, a german accent and one hell of a short fuse. Oh, and one more thing on the war - has anyone seen that film, U-571 or something, where the americans captured the Enigma machine? Yeah? Well it's lies, lies, lies. The americans never captured the enigma, it was captured by a british crew on a british destroyer. Nothing American involved. They didn't even decode it... that was done by the british too. Just thought I might get that off my chest.
So you forget that 5 of the top 10 pilots who flew in the Battle of Brittain weren't even british? No, not talking about Germans, I'm referring to the pilots of various allied nations defending your country. Poles, New Zealanders, Australians and Czechs included. The Battle of Brittain was an unimpressive, barely functioning mess on both sides.
As for the Confeds being NAZIs, I don't think so, they fit better with Brittain. Australia, America, Ireland, Scotland, India, and many other nations have lived under British oppression. Plenty of forced labor, and taxation without representation involved too. So is Brittain evil?
I'm not saying the Confederation's is perfect, no government is. But the missions you do for the Confeds don't fit in with a evil, heartless, tyrannical government.