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Someone brought this up on the POG board, and the more I think about it the better the idea sounds. So I'll post the idea here in the hopes that perhaps Dee or Ambrosia might be able to comment on the idea...
Would it be possible to release a "Coldstone Lite" application. Basically it would be a free version of Coldstone except that it will only be able to create plug-ins for POG. Now the simple and dirty way to do this, from my limited experience, would be to remove the "Create New Game" option, and then create a small check to ensure that the plugin being cerated is only for POG(although, having a version that only creates plugins for any Coldstone created applicationcould be beneficial as well). Anyhow, the reasons for this would be the following:
Increased interest in POG would result in increased sales of POG. Currently the only way to extend the game is to purchase CGE, which in total is a $70 investment. Thats quite a bit for one game(yes, you can argue that CGE does more than create plug-ins, which is true, but some people may only want to create plug-ins). And marketing a game with limitless possibilities due to expansion is a bit over-exagerated if very few people are willing to spend the bucks to develop for it.
Increased CGE exposure. If a free version of CGE were offered then more people would download it and try it out. They would be able to build plug-ins for POG which as mentioned above will result in increased interest and sales of POG. As the plug-ins are cranked out people would be able to see first hand what CGE can do for an existing game, which would draw more people to download the free version to make their own plug-ins. Which leads us to...
Usage of a free "plug-ins only" version will get people familiar with how CGE works, and invariably these people will want to create their own games which will result in increased CGE sales. People typically purchase products that they know how to use. Having a free version available for plug-ins will give these people the time and latitude to get to know the product better than a 30-day trial period, as well as the ability to contribute to the community effort of POG. And when they decide to branch out they will purchase the full CGE because it is what they know and what they have been using.
If the lite version was created, and if it allowed creation of plug-ins for any CGE created game as opposed to only for POG, then one last selling point for this would be an increased consumer base. Why is this? Because a game developer purchases CGE and makes a game that has plug-in capability. He releases the game and includes a note saying that those people interested in extending the game can download the free Coldstone Game Engine Lite(CGEL) and make their own plug-ins. Thus these 3rd party games are not only advertising CGE by producing their games, they are actively recruiting by saying, "Hey, making plug-ins is easy. Come make a plug-in for my game." And when these people get CGEL and design plug-ins for that 3rd party game, they become familiar with CGEL and when they too decide to make their own game then what do they purchase? CGE of course.
Anyhow, these are the ideas that came to mind when I saw the post on the POG board. Hopefully those with the ability to make the decisions regarding these things will like this proposal and act upon it. I'd really like to see the CGE community grow and prosper, and this is one of the things that could really kick start it.
Thanks.
------------------ Calvin: People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.
Hobbes: Isn't your pants' zipper supposed to be in the front?
(QUOTE)Originally posted by Stark Bledfast: (B)Someone brought this up on the POG board, and the more I think about it the better the idea sounds. So I'll post the idea here in the hopes that perhaps Dee or Ambrosia might be able to comment on the idea...
Would it be possible to release a "Coldstone Lite" application.
Makes good marketing sense to me. I would like to see a discount price of POG for those of us that already bought Coldstone.. Like you said, "that's a $70.00 total investment".
------------------
(This message has been edited by Toast (edited 05-28-2002).)
Sorry to disappoint you all, but don't count on it. Great idea, but from the very little I know, Beenox appears to be engaged in other projects. :frown: If it were me, I would not make it able to do anything plugs. But I would limit that as well. Possibly not enable all the events etc. Anyway, sorry for being pessimistic.
------------------ Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool.
Quote
Originally posted by Stark Bledfast: **< snip> **
I like that idea a great deal, actually Stark. Like you've said it would be a good sales boost for both CGE and for PoG, and if Ambrosia releases other games built with Coldstone, it could help create a more diverse and expandable user base around them that creates additional features, like the EV games have done. I've always thought that the lack of plugins for PoG has been caused firstly by the investment needed to release what is essentially a free product, and by the bugs themselves that cause development to be rather difficult. This product would seem to avoid the investment necessity at least, and as you say, once people have familiarised themselves with the Lite version, they would probably become eager to release a standalone product, and would be more likely to purchase CGE. This can be seen in Aladdin Systems, with Stuffit Lite and Deluxe. Lite works fine, sure..... but it's not as fast or as efficient and Deluxe, and so Aladdin has always sold many copies of it.
This would be a great tool for the user to have, both as an introduction and as a sales helper.... but as spitfire as said, I wouldn't count on it, at least not right away.... we'll have to wait and see what Ambrosia and Beenox think.
-Andiyar
------------------ "Any good that I may do here, let me do now, for I may not pass this way again"
coldstone Lite
not likely, at least not for like 3 more years, and this would lead to a community of software squatters i.e. those who never intend on buying coldstone, their halfbaked/haphazzard/underveloped/no effort demos would flood the net, hackers will develop, ambrosia/beenox will have a slew of legal issues arise...on and on and on
save some money,show some dedication...you'll need it to build a quality game (note this is posted to the crowd/ not the individual)
------------------ Download my current game 'Tandum- (*)' on my site at (url="http://"http://www.geocities.com/ellrx/index.html")Tandum is being rebuilt with CGE,Wait it will come(/url) My")http://www.geocities...ritetest.jpg)My 38k Sprite Test image, check it out(/url)
I think what Stark is saying ill_a_nois is that PoG has kinda suffered from EVN and that the big plugs have been put on hold for a long time until EVN slows down....It would only create small plugins for PoG.....Maybe that would be to hard to create but the idea to increase sales and usage of a game that was given great hype but has been played to its full potential maybe worth it.........
------------------ .
Originally posted by ill_a_nois: **coldstone Lite
**
That post made hardly any sense at all. Why would a POG-only version attract hackers? Why would it attract 'no effort demos'? And even if that happened, why would it be a problem? EV/O/N provide great, free plugin making facilities, and the net isn't 'flooded' with 'no-effort demos' and 'hackers'. Some crappy plugins have been produced for sure, but they just gain poor ratings on the addons pages and nobody downloads them.
What are these 'legal issues' involved? I can't think of any.
------------------ (url="http://"http://www.mazca.com/")Mazca(/url) , Moderator, EV Developer's Corner The one and only (url="http://"http://www.mazca.com/pr0n/legomazca.jpg")drunken kitchen leprechaun(/url) (url="http://"http://www.AmbrosiaSW.com/cgi-bin/ubb/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&number;=9&SUBMIT;=Go")EV Developer's Corner(/url) | (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/cgi-bin/vftp/show.pl?product=evn&category;=utilities&display;=date&file;=NovaTools.sit")NovaTools(/url) | (url="http://"http://www.AmbrosiaSW.com/cgi-bin/ubb/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&number;=29&SUBMIT;=Go")EV Development FAQs(/url) | (pipeline: he sucks™)
Toss me in the "people who think this is an awesome idea" category. Great reasoning behind it, too.
------------------ (url="http://"http://www.evula.com/")EVula,(/url) your friendly (url="http://"http://www.evula.com/")self-promoting(/url) EV & EVO Boards/Addon/Newswire/Chronicles moderator (url="http://"http://www.evula.com/")EVula.com(/url) | (url="http://"http://www.evula.net/")evula.net(/url) | (url="http://"http://www.ev-nova.net/")ev-nova.net(/url) (url="http://"http://pftn.evula.net")pftn.evula.net(/url) | (url="http://"http://plugs3.evula.net")plugs3.evula.net(/url) | (url="http://"http://saberstudios.evula.net")saberstudios.evula.net(/url) | (url="http://"http://davidarthur.evula.net")davidarthur.evula.net(/url) | (url="http://"http://ucplugs.evula.net")ucplugs.evula.net(/url)
Originally posted by Mazca: **That post made hardly any sense at all. Why would a POG-only version attract hackers? Why would it attract 'no effort demos'? And even if that happened, why would it be a problem? EV/O/N provide great, free plugin making facilities, and the net isn't 'flooded' with 'no-effort demos' and 'hackers'. Some crappy plugins have been produced for sure, but they just gain poor ratings on the addons pages and nobody downloads them.
if you'll take notice of the original post, i was attempting to be brief/general/vague in order to save time... and to eliminate people debating specific comments obviously it didn't dawn on you. use your imagination plz
------------------ Download my current game 'Tandum- (*)' on my site at (url="http://"http://www.geocities.com/ellrx/index.html")Tandum is being rebuilt with CGE,Wait it will come(/url) My%20%5burl=http://"http://www.geocities.com/ellrx/spritetest.jpg" target="_blank">My
Originally posted by ill_a_nois: **if you'll take notice of the original post, i was attempting to be brief/general/vague in order to save time... and to eliminate people debating specific comments obviously it didn't dawn on you. use your imagination plz
Did you know that the concept behind writing is that you're supposed to be communicating? We don't want to spend our time guessing at what you might be saying. Take the extra fifteen seconds to write something we can understand.
Your original post was completely baseless, and had no evidence to support your theory. As Mazca pointed out, EVN has much the same plug-in-writing system as this proposed "CGE Lite" (which I'm still kind of fidgety about), and nothing bad has ever happened. And what do you mean by "hackers"? You can't hack very well using a plugin-only version of CGE (or any version of CGE, for that matter). And ASW has a disclaimer on their site saying that they didn't make any of these third-party plugins and are therefore not responsible for anything that might happen because of them. Perhaps if you stated your case more clearly, we would be able to give a satisfactory response.
------------------ The greatest of harm can result from the best of intentions — Wizard's Second Rule, Stone of Tears. — Cafall
Mazca and Cafall seem to be making lots more sense than you. Being brief is fine, but I really don't get what you hoped to achieve with a message that just brought up loads of baseless and nonsensical points. Coldstone is a great piece of software and there's nothing wrong, in my eyes, with something that gives access to it to more people.
------------------ steamydemon I'm not a complete idiot - some parts are missing.
Originally posted by steamydemon: **Mazca and Cafall seem to be making lots more sense than you. Being brief is fine, but I really don't get what you hoped to achieve with a message that just brought up loads of baseless and nonsensical points. Coldstone is a great piece of software and there's nothing wrong, in my eyes, with something that gives access to it to more people.
blink...blink...listens, hears you ....points to original post , as if to say not gonna say anything else
Originally posted by ill_a_nois: ** blink...blink...listens, hears you ....points to original post , as if to say not gonna say anything else
Jeez! The whole point of my response, as well as Mazca's and demon's was that we can't understand why you said the things you said. What legal issues? Why would a hacker problem develop? Have you read anything we said? We want you to tell us how you came to those conclusions! If you're trying to convince us that you know what you're talking about, your latest post didn't help.
Originally posted by ill_a_nois: blink...blink...listens, hears you ....points to original post , as if to say not gonna say anything else
Alright, since you won't clarify what you're trying to say, I'll just make assumptions and respond to your original post:
Originally posted by ill_a_nois: not likely, at least not for like 3 more years
If CGEL came out 3 years from now, it would fall flat on it's face.
Originally posted by ill_a_nois: and this would lead to a community of software squatters
Eh?
Originally posted by ill_a_nois: i.e. those who never intend on buying coldstone
That's all well and fine, as CGEL wouldn't be able to do the things that CGE could. You're assuming that a lite version could create a full program, but the proposed idea doesn't allow it to. It would only be able to create plugins (for POG or any other CGE-based game), not full games themselves. It would be a taste of what the full program could do, and could intice some users to purchase the full version.
Originally posted by ill_a_nois: their halfbaked/haphazzard/underveloped/no effort demos would flood the net
Point is void because CGEL wouldn't be able to create full programs, merely plugins.
Originally posted by ill_a_nois: hackers will develop
This is rather perplexing... I don't see how, so I'm going to assume you're working on the same assumption that you were two quotes up, and ignore it.
Originally posted by ill_a_nois: ambrosia/beenox will have a slew of legal issues arise
See above.
Originally posted by ill_a_nois: save some money,show some dedication...you'll need it to build a quality game (note this is posted to the crowd/ not the individual)
Save some money? That's what CGEL would be; a slimmed down version for free that was limited in ability, but strong enough to generate interest in those who would be interested in something like this. People who only wanted to create plugins could, without the high overhead for creating something free.
In addition, if it could create plugins for other games created with CGE, it would broaden it's user base with each 3rd-party game, and thereby increase the plugin development community, some of whom would then go on to create their own games with Coldstone, and those games could support plugins, and... well, it just goes on and on and on.
That's a great idea, but I think Coldstone already has a "lite" side.
The Coldstone demo already let you build plugins for PoG without having you pay for that. You do have a limit in the size of the plugins though (I don't remember the exact number of each maps, npcs, etc. you are allowed - I'm at home and can't check). I thought about this from the start since we want people to be able to use Coldstone as a "free" expansion kit for games made with it (like PoG). If you are to develop a BIG plugin with it however, than you have to pay for it.
Or maybe I'm missing something? Doesn't Coldstone let you create a plugin for PoG?
------------------ Dee Brown Beenox inc. - (url="http://"http://www.beenox.com")www.beenox.com(/url) (check our new web site!) (url="http://"http://www.AmbrosiaSW.com/games/coldstone/")Coldstone Game Engine(/url) / (url="http://"http://www.AmbrosiaSW.com/games/pog/")Pillars of Garendall(/url) developers
Originally posted by Dee: **That's a great idea, but I think Coldstone already has a "lite" side.
Or maybe I'm missing something? Doesn't Coldstone let you create a plugin for PoG?**
Thanks for the reply Dee. The demo is pretty much what is needed, except that the demo has a 30-day trial period. After that the demo quits working. The demo will also let you build a stand-alone game and not just a plug-in.
So for a "lite" version the following would be needed to be changed from the existing demo version:
Remove 30-day trial period - Since if a person was only building plug-ins, a 30-day trial would be long enough to become familiar enough with the engine to build a plug-in, but that would be about it. If you wanted to build more plugins you are currently required to register CGE, which as stated above is a $70 investment(POG + CGE) just to make POG plug-ins.
Disable stand-alone builds. If you remove the trial period but do not disable this, then it would be a waste of time to sell a full version since the only added benefit would be additional events and pre-made pictures.
Thats about all I can think of at the moment. I would think modifying the demo wouldn't be too hard if you guys wanted to. Does the above make sense?
(This message has been edited by Stark Bledfast (edited 06-01-2002).)