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Now, much of the material posted on this board lately has been pertaining to what we can do now, and what we intend to do, as can be seen in Necro's topic (url="http://"http://www.AmbrosiaSW.com/cgi-bin/ubb/postdisplay.cgi?forum=Forum48&topic;=000721")here(/url), and in JB5AGENT's topic (url="http://"http://www.AmbrosiaSW.com/cgi-bin/ubb/postdisplay.cgi?forum=Forum48&topic;=000658")here(/url). So I don't really want to just go over what has already been done, but I wish to ask a question or two, and maybe offer solutions.
Now firstly, when you get your hands on Coldstone, I imagine that, apart from the testers and maybe people who had a fiddle with the pre-Ambrosia product, most of us will at first feel a bit lost, and will need to take some time to begin to make our games. Now, I believe that Dee has stated that you can make a working game in an hour or so, using the built in tilesets etc, but how long will it take to make a good, or a great game? You have to write a plot, a script, obtain graphics and music (or use CS's libraries, I suppose) and generally plan out your entire game as Necro said in the aforementioned topic. Now a great deal of this is too much for one person to easily handle, I mean, lets face it: I don't believe anyone here is about to drop their career, schooling, life etc. to devote all of their energy to Coldstone, becoming a full time CS engineer. That kind of thing would only happen after proving yourself popular and capable, not before you release your first game. So what can you do about it, so that you can devote some time to Coldstone, making a great game, but still have a 'normal' life and, here's the killer, finish this game within a reasonably short time period, say a year to two years?
Basically, my question comes down to this, with our first ever games in Coldstone, none of us will be particularly experienced, bar the testers, and as such our development time will naturally be even more than if we knew what we were doing. So, would anyone here consider swallowing their pride and collaborating with someone else, friend, family member, webboard member, even your computer litereate dog, in order to create your first project? Yes, I know that many people will form groups with say, artists, musicians, writers and the actual people who work on the engine, but much of the appeal of Coldstone is that it lets people go solo. Even so, would you consider a collaboration or a possible sharing to get your first game out the door quicker? And of course, you know the old saying, two heads are better than one.
So what do you think? Will you collaborate on your first game, or will you try to go your own way?
-Andiyar
------------------ "Any good that I may do here, let me do now, for I may not pass this way again"
Quote
Originally posted by Tarnćlion Andiyarus: **Now, I believe that Dee has stated that you can make a working game in an hour or so, using the built in tilesets etc, but how long will it take to make a good, or a great game? **
I would love help with my game, but since I'm such a tight-@$$-loner-perfectionist (heh), I'll just end up doin it myself (with perhaps one buddy to help me with the grunt work) ------------------ Hail to the king, baby.
(This message has been edited by Bean * (edited 11-19-2001).)
As a matter of comparison, at my company simple Director games take twelve employee weeks to complete (usually three employees working for a solid month). The typical Coldstone game will likely be four to six times more complex than one of our games (ballpark estimate). This may be balanced by those who use the supplied graphics, and the fact that Coldstone handles all the heavy lifting code-wise. So, if you're going it alone, I would expect you to spend six months to a year in part-time work on your first Coldstone game.
In my experience with any sort of large project, the more planning you do ahead of time the less actual work it will take to do. I would recommend planning out your entire game in outline form (or storyboards, if you're visually inclined) before you start, and then focusing on each bullet or frame as you go- that will give you little "completions" as you go and help you sustain work toward the final product.
Collaboration adds the overhead of coordination- two people are not twice as effecient as one (like multiprocessing). Additionally, there needs to be a clear creative lead in my experience-- projects can get bogged in disagreements and lack of cooperation otherwise.
If you are going to collaborate with someone in an informal (non-business) manner, I would suggest delineating each person's roles, responsibilities, and deliverables just as if it were a business. A little clarity before you embark will save a lot of hurt feelings later.
I'm likely going to work by myself because I can't commit to a real schedule- I have a job and wife, after all and I wouldn't want to hold up others due to my lack of free time. What I will do is draw on the expertise of friends for review- I have a game designer friend who I will have look over my design before I start, and I will solicit musical friends for short snippets of sound when appropriate. Otherwise, it will be a 100% solo endeavor.
------------------ marc siry century city, usa
I would love to have a little help with my game, but, similar to bean, I have trouble working in groups. It would do me some good though to work together with someone(s).
Anyone who can put up with me, ( ) I do a little 3D, (I can do a head in Pixels, not including eyes) and a good deal of Photoshop. I am also pretty good at sketching stuff by hand. I'll get a sample in the Image Gallery soon enough. I also have some experience in Illistrator, Flash, and Livemotion.
I would probably be interested in doing a fantasy or futuristic game. Although I doubt that will be a problem. Who isn't doing one of those anyway. Give me an e-mail if you're interested.
------------------ When asked what his favorite bible verse was, Bill Clinton calmly responded. "John 16:3" "These things they have said because they know not the father nor me." -John 16:3
As I have said before, I work with an informal group of talented hobbyists creating plug-ins (MODs) for the Myth series of games, so I am quite used to working with others.
I agree with marcsiry that such projects bennefit greatly from a clear leader, or occasionally two co-leaders. Assigning specific tasks and areas of responsibilities according to everyone's various skills is also a good thing. For example, in my group, we can all be considered artists -- we all know PhotoShop and several of us can also do some nice 3D work. But, we can't all just sit around in the evening working on the fun, flashy stuff like character design and painting beautiful scenery. If we all did that, nothing would get finished. Someone has to be in charge of the nitty gritty stuff. Someone has to make all the mundane stuff like stones and crates. Someone has to debug the scripting. Etc., etc.
Working on a large scale project like one of our Myth MODs involves hundreds of hours of off-time work, and skill in dozens of different applications. I'm sure it will be no different than developing for Coldstone. Out of all the applications and tools my group uses, I would say the most important one by far is our private Hotline Server. This serves as the group's metting ground almost every night. It allows us to chat live with everyone, no matter where in the world they live, we can post news items for each other, and exchange files very easily through a well structured system of folders. If anyone of your are thinking about working together on a CS project, I would highly recommend you consider setting up one of these HL servers for the group. It's free and very easy to use. You can visit (url="http://"http://www.BigRedH.com")http://www.BigRedH.com(/url) to freely download HL Server and HL Client for Mac, Windows, or Linyx.
------------------ -- Mauglir
In every game related project I have been involved in projects that were done as a group effort tended to take two to three times longer than projects I did by myself. When all the elements for a game or mod are being made by you, you know exactly where you stand, what needs to be done, and how it will all work together. Group projects tend to get hung up on every little detail and problem. It will all seem good when the project starts but before long the guy who was supposed to do level 4 will be doing level three, the art guy indexed his graphics to the wrong color table, the scripting is broken and no one knows why, he thought you were going to do that and you thought he was, the guy doing the sounds got sent to boot camp,and the list will go on and on. Too bad games are getting so large and complicated that it is almost inpossible to make something good by yourself anymore.
Originally posted by Tarnćlion Andiyarus: **So what do you think? Will you collaborate on your first game, or will you try to go your own way?
**
Umm..... Yes.
But seriously, Andiyar and I are already working on our game. It'll be sweet, hopefully. Now, to find an artist.....
------------------ We tell stories of heroes to remind ourselves that we too can be great.
Originally posted by Celchu: Umm..... Yes.
Really? Wow! I would never have guessed!
**But seriously, Andiyar and I are already working on our game. It'll be sweet, hopefully. Now, to find an artist.....
Indeed we are. It will be good, all of you will play it. Long and well, all the way through. Please!
Originally posted by Tarnćlion Andiyarus: **It will be good, all of you will play it. Long and well, all the way through. Please!
Or we will come to your house, break down your door, smash a few windows, and beat your dog.
------------------ We tell stories of heroes to remind ourselves that we too can be great. Help Wanted! If you can do computer graphics and are interested in working on a fantasy /alternate reality Coldstone game, email me! This space for rent.
Celchu.... I didn't know where else to post this, so I hope you read this. It seems that your email account has gone and died on you while you were away on the weekend. I sent you a message on Friday, which seems to have got through, but I've tried sending some stuff through today, but get the following (I've tried three times):
**This Message was undeliverable due to the following reason:
The user(s) account is disabled.
bob8171@mail.alntn1.tx.home.com
Please reply to Postmaster@mail.alntn1.tx.home.com if you feel this message to be in error. Reporting-MTA: dns; femail35.home.com Arrival-Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 00:03:54 -0800 Received-From-MTA: dns; mh4-va.mail.home.com (65.14.223.41)
Final-Recipient: RFC822; bob8171@mail.alntn1.tx.home.com Action: failed Status: 5.2.1**
So... do you have another email I can send to, or will this one be active again soon? Since CS is due out 'soon' we really should try not to lose momentum here.
(This message has been edited by Tarnćlion Andiyarus (edited 12-03-2001).)
I'm as happy as you that Coldstone is almost out. It seems that Excite (my normal provider) has gone bankrupt and transferred my stuff to ATT Broadband (my cable modem thingamabob). My e-mail was restored today along with the internet connection. My new address is bob8171@attbi.com BTW, I have 8 notebook pages of the history done, and I will send them once I type them up.
Hey, guys. I know this is irrelevent, but I can't start new thred when I'm a guest. Look out for The Crystal Shards, an upcoming update for PoG, made by me and CSGE. It's gonna ROCK THE HOUSE!!!
Boo-Yah!
Originally posted by Twist: **Hey, guys. I know this is irrelevent, but I can't start new thred when I'm a guest. Look out for The Crystal Shards, an upcoming update for PoG, made by me and CSGE. It's gonna ROCK THE HOUSE!!!
Heyas, if you're going to be around and release a plug-in for PoG, definitely register!
Also, you could submit a Coldstone News item to announce your development of it.
------------------ Fortress of Die Nacht: An upcoming game from Aviary Productions. (url="http://"http://www.aviaryproductions.f2s.com/downloads.html")Go take a look!(/url) | (url="http://"http://www.aviaryproductions.f2s.com/fortress/progresslog.html")FoDN Progress Log(/url)
As for me, when I get the chance, I will create my own game. I have an idea so thorough that it would entice me to play when I go on. The many things I could make to createmy perfect realm would take me a bit but would be great.
To clear it up, I would make my own game and then forever play it
------------------ New and improved, Df only attends the Cythera boards for some odd reason
Originally posted by Celchu: **I'm as happy as you that Coldstone is almost out. It seems that Excite (my normal provider) has gone bankrupt and transferred my stuff to ATT Broadband (my cable modem thingamabob). My e-mail was restored today along with the internet connection. My new address is bob8171@attbi.com BTW, I have 8 notebook pages of the history done, and I will send them once I type them up.
Excellent. The message has been sent to you. Oh, and feel free to send those notes whenever they're done. No big rush, still a little while before CS is released.
Right, I'll register soon. I just gotta talk with Pop about it (I'm only 12, but that doesn't mean I'm not a fan of Ambrosia and can't make a sweet plug-in).
"Let no one look down upon you because you're young."- somewhere in first or second Timothy
------------------ Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool.
Originally posted by Tarnćlion Andiyarus: ** Now firstly, when you get your hands on Coldstone, I imagine that, apart from the testers and maybe people who had a fiddle with the pre-Ambrosia product, most of us will at first feel a bit lost, and will need to take some time to begin to make our games. Now, I believe that Dee has stated that you can make a working game in an hour or so, using the built in tilesets etc, but how long will it take to make a good, or a great game? **
I would say that it takes more than you would think. Aside from what you mentioned their is the fact that you have to apply it. You will also go through many revisions if you want to get a good product. Also, if you want it to be bug free you will need to spend a lot of time just testing it.
------------------ "Well you know that it's a fool who plays it cool by making his world a little colder." "AARGH! MY SPINAL ERECTORS!!!!"
I was not planning on making a Coldstone plug-in, but after Trinity, I am hooked. I hope to get some friends together to make a nice plug-in. It would definitely have to be a collaborative process. I can't wait.
------------------ Bushes are nice 'cause they don't have prickers -- unless they do. This one did. Ouch! -Ralph Wiggum Extemporaneous since November 2, 2000 Download (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/cgi-bin/vftp/dl-redirect.pl?path=ferazel/addons&file;=Extemporaneous.sit.hqx")Extemporaneous 0.5(/url) for Ferazel's Wand. Visit the (url="http://"http://homepage.mac.com/emudevelopers/ferazel.html")Extemporaneous Website(/url).