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Some advice for anyone making a new TC: 1. When you start a TC make sure that you have adequate resources and time.
2. If you have never made at least a plug it is not advisable for you to try to make a TC
3. Don't post about your TC until you are through the hard stuff (Missions, Ships, etc.)
4. Start out small and grow larger-(start with getting a plug working so that you have at least a foundation to work on)
Much of my experience has come from several failed TCs. anymore advice would be appreciated
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(This message has been edited by mequadrunner (edited 08-03-2004).)
Sorry, are you offering advice or requesting it?
Some thoughts: 1. When you start a TC make sure that you have adequate resources and time.
Thought: I'm not sure how helpful this is. Until someone has made a TC, how can they know what the resources and time are? In any case, what are adequate resources and time?
Thought: Aha. Now I see where I went wrong.
3. Don't advertise your TC until you are through the hard stuff (Missions, Ships, etc.)
Thought: Apart from software companies, which usually pay the penalty for it, very few commercial organisations do any marketing at all until the product is tested and ready to roll. Also: how do you know which will be the hard stuff until you've done it all?
Thought: Isn't this by definition what you would have to do? I don't see how it would be possible to start anywhere but small. But heck, what would I know?
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Heh, I love how this guy has a whole TWO posts and is offering TC advice. Martin Turner
------------------ (url="http://"http://blog.evula.net/Ephialtes")The Blog of Ephialtes(/url) "They can swivel on this middle digit, swivel unti they squeal like two pigs on their honeymoon!" - Kryten, Red Dwarf series 5, episode 6, "Back to Reality" 'I just wish I could translate my humour to the boards without some old person going "oh, #ev3 is so horrible, blah blah, I have a fork inserted in my anus and think I'm better than you"' - scythe
Quote
Originally posted by Ephialtes: **Heh, I love how this guy has a whole TWO posts and is offering TC advice. Martin Turner
**
And your point is? So, I listen more than I talk!
He is still allowed to speak up, and he may have experience with TC´s... I feel a kind of.. "I have more posts than you" attitude here..Which is plain out retarded. I know some good developer who don´t frequent the web boards.
On the TC part, most of your advice is very obvious. And you didn´t really answer Martin Turner´s question on whether you want or are offering advice.
The most important thing, in my opinion, is to lower the bar to a level where you´ll be able to finish your project. Also very obvious, but a very easy mistake to make.
------------------ And then there were silence.................
Originally posted by Martin Turner: **Sorry, are you offering advice or requesting it? **
I am both offering and requesting advice. I am not an authority on TCs, but I felt that, even though my observations may be obvious, this is a topic that needed to be addressed.
Start out small and grow larger-(start with getting a plug working so that you have at least a foundation to work on.
When I started my own TC (since failed, but the point is still valid), I got a couple of each resource working ships, weapons, outfits, dudes, systems, and planets. This allowed me to actually test everything I had and gave me something to expand on. If something was buggy, I could identify the problem relatively quickly, since I knew what I'd changed since last testing it. Plus, it took a lot longer to become vaporware than it would have, because I could see the thing growing before my eyes.
------------------ To quote a pillar of American society: D'OH!
Originally posted by Mazer Rackham: **Plus, it took a lot longer to become vaporware than it would have, because I could see the thing growing before my eyes.
My TC isn't doing too well (motivation issues)... I've been using Bomb's Plug-In guide, and the way it sets it up, you don't really experiance any progress until you're nearly done. I mean, you don't even get to much of what you've done until you start working on spobs...
Meh. Maybe I should get someone else to help me. 2 people means it goes twice as fast... right? And having the other person asking questions about my progress would help in my motivation vacent dept.
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(This message has been edited by Phyvo (edited 08-03-2004).)
Advice? Use whatever method you need to finish it.
Anything else is more or less extraneous.
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Originally posted by Martin Turner: **Sorry, are you offering advice or requesting it?
Well as much as I hate to point this out, your post was written in a derisive manner that twisted his words and addressed them only in a way that would allow you to get your sarcastic quips in. Thanks Moderator.
1. While not having ever developed a TC, with a tiny bit of dev experience (or perhaps none at all) and an average dose of common sense, one could reasonably analyze their life and their ability to meet the commitments than one can reasonably assume would go along with that task.
2. I would say that most developers who are successful would agree with this advice. However, if you, in your infinite ability, developed your amazing plug-ins without ever dabbling or trying any small projects, you are an inspiration to us all. In fact, I would recommend that everyone, regardless of development experience, begins development on a TC.
3. Well, as plug-in development is closer to software development than almost any other commercial enterprises, maybe it would be a good idea to take a lesson from their errors. Moreover, over hyping a plug-in, and premature advertising is a problem that has plagued the EV development community from day one. Oh, and organisations is spelled organizations.
4. Well, if we take the message in the way that it was (clearly) meant to be taken, we see that he means get the core of the plug-in operational before going on to minor development. For instance, developing the basic universe, necessary planets, main mission strings, basic plot spacecraft and weapons, before developing things like side strings, disaster, junk, and other, similar resources. EG maybe one would develop the main mission string, then move to planet descs instead of writing every single mission that the game will have.
Overall, these sound like good advice, not that I agree 100% with all of them, but, generally, they are well thought out and applicable. Is there some reason that you feel that a sardonic, unpleasant, poorly thought out response is necessary? But then again, you are the perfect model for all plug-in developers, right? Who am I to question you? Joe
------------------ "Life is tough, but it's even tougher when you're stupid." -John Wayne
** Some advice for anyone making a new TC: 1. When you start a TC make sure that you have adequate resources and time.**
I started mine when I was working 48 hours a week in twelve hour shifts. I am also a parent of two with other hobbies than EVN. I work two jobs now for 75 hours a week.
I have to this day only played the Vell-os storyline for Nova. I've never even found a storyline in EVC or EVO, let alone played one. Plus, before I started my TC, I'd never made a plug. To this day I am the sole member of my dev team and I have 80 megs to show (not that I wouldn't appreciate a graphics person better than I am!). **
3. Don't post about your TC until you are through the hard stuff (Missions, Ships, etc.)**
Again, I announced my TC just shortly after I started it and long before I had any real idea what I was doing. The plot has changed six times since then.
Logical advice that I totally failed to follow. But things are coming along nicely, although slowly.
Believe it or not I'm not trying to be condencending or rude. I'm just trying to make the point that you can break all the rules and still enjoy some modicrumn of sucess. If you really want to and really have a good idea on which to base a full-scale tc then by all means at least try; the worst that will happen is that you won't finish it. But you'll probably have fun in the meantime. Just don't try to spread your infectious fun untill you have something on which to spread it
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Originally posted by rmx256: **Believe it or not I'm not trying to be condencending or rude. I'm just trying to make the point that you can break all the rules and still enjoy some modicrumn of sucess. If you really want to and really have a good idea on which to base a full-scale tc then by all means at least try; the worst that will happen is that you won't finish it. But you'll probably have fun in the meantime. Just don't try to spread your infectious fun untill you have something on which to spread it:) **
Well, while it is generally true that a small portion of people get away with breaking the rules, in general, they hold true. I have been around a long time, since EV was released. I have seen similar advice released by others in this community, and as long as they were established members, the advice was received with much more grace. Perhaps if you are indeed not trying to sound haughty, you should just go ahead and not make haughty comments. This is the way of things - the phrase 'no offense, but' all but guarantees that that offensive material will follow, and does not by any means make that material any less offensive (it servers only to prove that the speaker is a fool).
There is no reason that many of the replies to this post should ever have been written. Surely they werent formulated to help him these are rules he has developed thru his experience, and clearly work for him; telling him that they are irrelevant, useless, or unnecessary will serve neither benefit or edify him. Joe
I would like to apologise for my response to this topic. I had just been reminded of something that brought a lot of pain to me, and thus was in a very very bitter mood. Sorry if I have caused offence
I just wrote a heavy handed response to Jdh which I'm now deleting.
Jd - have you never heard of 'light-touch'? None of the responses in this thread were meant to shred the guy. On the other hand, you have to admit there's something a little odd about someone post advice on TCs when i) he's never made one and ii) it's only his second post. I think most people were responding to this.
For the rest, some of us really, really disagree with the advice he was giving. Rather than write six pages of comments, we just posted what we posted.
Enough said.
(This message has been edited by Martin Turner (edited 08-04-2004).)
Originally posted by Martin Turner: On the other hand, you have to admit there's something a little odd about someone post advice on TCs when i) he's never made one and ii) it's only his second post.
I don't understand the first point, here. Seems to me there is lots to be learned (not just in EV development, but life in general) from the failures of others. I don't think having released a TC is a prerequisite for offering a bit of advice.
Let me put it another way -- the biggest complaint we get on this board is about TCs which become vapourware. Somewhere there has to be a breakdown between someone's original desire to make a TC and actually issuing it. It could be lack of motivation, it could be because the person realises that their idea wasn't really big enough, it could be because the events of life get in the way, or it could be for a thousand other reasons. We know that some TCs get really close to release but are never finalised, so there's obviously unexpected stuff that crops up even in the last phase.
I don't see any problem with people posting advice about making ships, missions, all kinds of specific stuff which they've actually done, but actually giving advice about the whole process seems a bit grandiose. I'm pretty certain there are ways of starting on a TC which might seem very logical but result in a longer or more difficult route. It's hard enough to see if your route was any good even when you've traversed the terrain. From halfway along, I think it would be more appropriate to say 'I'm making a plugin and I've decided to go about it this way, what does everybody else do?'
Interestingly, the people who still post on these boards who have released big plugins don't tend to give advice out like 'this is how you do a TC'. They tend to say things like 'this is what I did, but it's just me and you need to find your own way'.
Just my thoughts. No need to agree if you don't want to.
Originally posted by Martin Turner: **Let me put it another way -- the biggest complaint we get on this board is about TCs which become vapourware. Somewhere there has to be a breakdown between someone's original desire to make a TC and actually issuing it. It could be lack of motivation, it could be because the person realises that their idea wasn't really big enough, it could be because the events of life get in the way, or it could be for a thousand other reasons. We know that some TCs get really close to release but are never finalised, so there's obviously unexpected stuff that crops up even in the last phase.
While I still think that there is no reason to dismiss the advice given, perhaps you could have responded in this manner - rather than in a bightingly sarcastic way - the first time. There are polite ways to disagree with someone, and so far this is really the first post that was written to politely disagree with the topic. Joe
Well, seriously jdh, I felt my initial response was relatively lightweight - I didn't really get that impression with yours.
By the way, in English it's 'organisation'. You can check the Oxford English Dictionary if you like. If it's different in your language that's fine by me, if you want to use that in your posts.
I tailored my initial post to be as scathing as yours - if someone with but 2 posts deserves anything, it is a warm reception, not an immediate sarcastic response, especially when his post was seemingly altruistic and unassuming. If these boards are to grow to their full potential, shouldnt we greet new members with friendliness (regardless of any disagreement with the posts content) rather than haughty sarcasm? Joe
But the sarcasm was your own interpretation, not my intention. Put it down to cultural difference. Ah - but I forgot - you're American and don't understand that. (oops. British irony (/off). delete. delete. delete.)
Pax?