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Originally posted by UncleTwitchy: **told me that I'd fail, that only teams finish plugs, that solo efforts never succeed **
Hmm.. I don't think I've seen this other ST TC, <sarcasm> I wonder what could have happened to it </sarcasm> Total rubbish about solo efforts never succeed.
Anyway, back on topic, if I were to make a TC (which I doubt I could do on my own), i would distribute it as donationware. Donationware is (in my eyes) the better way of making money out a plug-in, because it's the person's choice, and of course their opinion of the plug-in that makes them send cash, and hey, when you plan/make/work on a plug, are you doing it to make money? If that's your sole motivation, I don't believe the finished product would be as good as it could be. Anyway, that's one opinion,
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Originally posted by Martin Turner: **Mm, interesting.
**
That isn't the point. The engine itself (atmos owns the scenario) is owned by Matt Burch. I don't know what take Ambrosia has in it, so i certainly can't speak for them, but in order to legally charge anything you'd have to get Matt's permission. Of this I am absolutely sure.
** 6) Don't really agree with the part about a really great plugin requiring a new engine. EVO's engine was virtually the same as EV's, and the new features didn't drastically improve the gameplay. Nova's engine has not yet been fully explored - there are quite a few features which Atmos didn't end up using, such as Chars, and loads which could be taken in different directions. **
Absolutely right. But again, the engine isn't yours to just use to make money- it is legally owned by somebody. If the engine itself was available for use by anybody people would have charged for plug-ins by now. It is no small wonder then that only two plug-ins have ever incurred a fee: EVO and EVN.
But Bomb, no-one is suggesting selling the Nova engine. If you offer a product in the market place, you ask someone to pay for what they are getting. For example, buying a QuarkXpress Xtension doesn't give you the right to run QuarkXpress if you haven't paid for it. Equally, though, buying QuarkXpress doesn't give you the right just to run 3rd party Xtensions for free - unless they are freeware.
If you released code that was owned by Ambrosia and claimed it was yours, you would be infringing copyright. If you released a plugin which used the EV Nova trademark in order to pass it off as an 'official' plugin, you would be infringing the trademark. Both of these would apply whether or not you were charging for it. However, a shareware (or even a shrink-wrapped) plugin would not necessarily do either of these things.
Anyway, the whole point is slightly academic - I've never heard Ambrosia suggest that plugins have to be freeware. In fact, Atmos were originally going to release Nova as an EVO shareware plugin, and this was discussed on this board a lot. Ambrosia never raised any objections - and the fact that they later bought into the project can hardly be seen as an 'objection'.
------------------ M A R T I N T U R N E R (url="http://"http://www.AmbrosiaSW.com/cgi-bin/vftp/show.pl?product=evo&category;=plugins&display;=downloads&file;=FrozenHeart104.sit.bin")Frozen Heart(/url) (url="http://"http://www.AmbrosiaSW.com/cgi-bin/vftp/show.pl?product=evo&category;=plugins&display;=downloads&file;=FemmeFatale.sea.bin")Femme Fatale(/url) (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/cgi-bin/vftp/dl-redirect.pl?path=evo/plugins&file;=Frozen Heart - the No.hqx")Frozen Heart - the Novel(/url)
Originally posted by Engla: **When Martin said he would do FH and FF for nova, I was very excited. If Martin, as he said, has doubts about finishing the plug, I would think it is absolutely right to make it shareware. If that is what recognition and payoff he wants from doing the work and making the plug, I think we should offer him it.
Actually this thread isn't a bit of pre-marketing hype for Frozen Heart Trilogy (the current working title).
I was just interested in what people thought of the idea of shareware now (which seems very different from what people were saying a couple of years ago).
I do think that plugin makers who actually release something have tended to get a very rough ride in the past. I remember when the Universe Next Door was released. It was slammed on these boards by many people, some of whom were quite vitriolic. Its only fault was that it was buggy. But people treated the author as if he had personally gone to their houses, forced them to install his plugin, and then forced them to play it until they couldn't stand it any more.
I suppose the other side is that there used to be a genuine cost in downloading stuff. I probably spent as much money on downloading plugins (many of which I later deleted) as I did on the EV and EVO registrations together. Now most of us have unlimited access or even broad band. I think some people felt aggrieved that they had spent three hours downloading something that turned out to not be very good.
As far as donation-ware, share-ware is concerned, my personal view is that things which are crippled or which expire after a couple of weeks of use are not shareware at all. They are at the very best demos.
In one of my other lives as a musician, I recently paid another $200 to upgrade my Waves audio plugins (yep, they are plugins - you still have to own ProTools or Emagic Logic or Cubase to use them). I'd already paid $1,000 for the originals. They are of course substantial tools and if you can't afford them, or you can't justify the money they cost, then chances are you don't need them. However, Waves will run for a month on your machine without any payment at all - just so that you can know that you really do want the product. Waves don't describe their product as 'Shareware' - they make it very clear that the 30 days is a demo. But it's a demo that you can use to record whole albums with if you are willing to put in the intensive time. Waves isn't unique in this Antares Mic Modeller and Autotune will run for a couple of weeks in full mode.
Most of the shareware I've paid for has allowed me to run unhindered until I felt ready to buy. This is reasonable, since some products I only use once a month, which means that a deadline of 30 days would mean I had tried them out just once.
There are quite a number of products out there which I've tried but have deleted the same day, usually because they are inhibited in some way, or because their demo period is so short that I don't think it's worth my while trying them out before committing to them.
So, I don't think I would bother to download a Demo plugin. On the other hand, if Eye of Orion or Angels of Vengeance had come with a 'this product is shareware - please register it if you enjoyed it so that we can invest in making more plugins' label, I would probably haved paid the money.
Originally posted by Bomb: ** This part I totally agree on, but in both in terms of artists and developers. If you put out something of a high quality that requires a huge chunk of your time, it is natural to want something in return. Whereas with EVO anyone could pretty much put out simple sprite graphics, in order to even get anywhere close to EVN's graphics you need to be at their level.
The same is true with developers and writers- they work just as hard in perfecting the product, and they should get some kind of compensation now that the bar has been raised so high. With EV/O (and I remember discussing this way back when Frozen Heart was first coming out) it was never really a serious issue because outstanding plug-ins were just that. With EVN, I'd think the best of the best of EVN plug-ins will be at the level of the game, so why not charge something for it?
Actually, maybe I was flattering myself, but at the time I did think I was putting something out that was at the same level as the EVO game. To be sure, not everyone liked it (I remember some people hating it), but, then, not everyone liked EVO either and I never actually forced anyone to play it.
Of course, FH, FF and EVO all look very dated now, with their crumbly 8-bit graphics. EVC looks even more dated. However, at the time I first played I thought 'wow, this is amazing'. The reason I played, though, wasn't the engine, it was the storyline. I loved the EV story, and I loved the classic plugins like Eye and Angels. The EVO engine was more advanced than the EV engine, but I never enjoyed it as much (although I recognise that many people preferred EVO). So, I registered EV because I loved the story, but I registered EVO and later EVN because I wanted to created plugins.
Originally posted by Martin Turner: **Actually, maybe I was flattering myself, but at the time I did think I was putting something out that was at the same level as the EVO game. To be sure, not everyone liked it (I remember some people hating it), but, then, not everyone liked EVO either and I never actually forced anyone to play it.
So, I suppose I better ask the big question that everybody wants to ask... When can we expect Frozen Heart Trilogy (I just know you are going to say "when its done...") I loved frozen heart it was possibly the greatest contribution to the comminuty ever and I must say I would love to hear more of its next generation...
Cheers, Si
------------------ "If I were a younger man, I would write a history of human stupidity; and I would climb to the top of Mount Mcabe and lie down on my back with my history as a pillow; and I would take from the ground some of the blue-white poison that makes statues of men; and I would make a statue of myself, lying on my back, grinning horribly, and thuimbing my nose at You Know Who." - Final Sentance on the Books of Bokonon (url="http://"http://tru7h.jonpearse.net/scifi.php")The Women of SF Archive(/url)
It has been a very interesting discussion from what I've read.
The only plug-in I would ever pay for would be FH2 because of the 100% assurance of quality. And any sequals after it.
Any others? No
--gav
------------------ ~~ SARZ, WZ ~~ **SARZ ~~ |-(DUKEr)-| // ~~ ~~ -(FOX)- ~~ **
As you say, when it's done.
If you want a status update, here it is:
Scenario conversion and debugging: done (thanks to Dr Ralph's Port Authority) 16 bit graphics, spins and shans: all done except weapons and a couple of ships FH missions: done and alpha tested FF missions: not yet converted New general missions: some done Ship type specific missions (for Shuttle, Wanderer, Rim Prospecter etc): some done New campaign Flight of the Hawk: Plot complete, coding now New spobs and systems: currently about twice as many spobs as in FH - more than in Nova New planet pics: done Bar pics: some done - these will largely be stylish photos of stylish or otherwise bars rather than renderings Stars: done New governments: some done New ships: some done New game twists: modal planets done, atmospheric missions done, rogue outfits done, hyperdrive failure done, hijacking done, planet only adventures done Old game twists: asteroids completely redesigned - the new system will blow you away (no, I mean really) Bogus game twists: stereoscopic play, telepathic control, fully human AI, coffee making facilities: all cancelled Cutting room floor: Secret Agent/Diplomat character; Private Detective character New music: not yet selected New opening screen animation: done for EVO, but not yet figured out how to repurpose for EVN New splash screen: not done
Things I said would never happen but are now in: Magellan and Rigellian missions
How much longer: haven't got a clue - may never actually finish it, so don't hold your breath.
What's the new storyline about: heroism, betrayal, surprise, Galactic Conflict, love, death, battle. In other words, all the usual stuff.
Will all the aspects of the game engine be used: haven't got a clue. I'm not really into using features for the sake of it. If the storyline demands it, features will get used.
Originally posted by Martin Turner: **(thanks to Dr Ralph's Port Authority)
Inside access or was it released and I have yet to hear?
------------------ (url="http://"http://www.ariossoftware.com")Arios SoftWare(/url) (url="http://"http://www.ariossoftware.com/products/evone/")EVONE 1.0pb2 - the plugin editor for EV/EVO/EVN(/url)
I don't think it's on general release.
Bar pics: some done - these will largely be stylish photos of stylish or otherwise bars rather than renderings
Are these like planetary pictures, replacing some of the landing pictures, or have you found a way (auto-activating mission with movie, perhaps) to show a seperate picture every time you enter a bar? Sounds intriguing.
New campaign Flight of the Hawk: Plot complete, coding now...
New material...is this one of the campaigns you mentioned in the original documentation? I seem to remember it this way.
New game twists: modal planets done, atmospheric missions done, rogue outfits done, hyperdrive failure done, hijacking done, planet only adventures done
These I really want to see........I'm trying my own take upon atmospheric missions/planet only adventures, rogue outfits, and hijacking, but whatever you come up will invariably be better than what I have implemented.
Bogus game twists: stereoscopic play, telepathic control, fully human AI, coffee making facilities: all cancelled
We'll all mourn them greatly, even as we enjoy your newly revised plug-in (that is, assuming you ever release it) :p.
Things I said would never happen but are now in: Magellan and Rigellian missions.
Looks promising. We have a lot to learn from you.
------------------ (url="http://"http://www.geocities.com/ue_rd")Fatal Alliance- an upcoming quasi-TC for EVN.(/url) Secret Project: Nearing Completion. (No links available) Visit the (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/cgi-bin/ubb/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&number;=20&SUBMIT;=Go")Chronicles(/url) today! Be sure to read the short story ' (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/cgi-bin/ubb/newsdisplay.cgi?action=topics &number;=20&forum;=*EV/EVO+chronicles&DaysPrune;=100&article;=000262&startpoint;=")Fiery Descent(/url)'! (url="http://"http://forums.tildesoft.com")Oblivion:(/url) An upcoming TC for EV:N
Before Nova was even announced, I was pondering charging for Cold Blood, a TC from before the "TC" acronym was tossed about so freely. I don't think I investigated as thoroughly as you, Martin, but as I recall (though I have no documentation to proove it), I emailed Ambrosia SW to see if they had any issues with shareware plugins. They told me it wasn't a problem. Where they stand now, I don't know, but I wouldn't expect things to have changed a whole lot since then (perhaps three, maybe four years).
My next move was to see if Ambrosia would help me develop and publish my plug, and that's when I found out they had just recently agreed to do this for another developer, undisclosed, and this was to be all their EV activity for the time being. Those other guys turned out to be ATMOS, of course, and I'm glad they beat me to it, 'cause I couldn't have made something as good as Nova back then. But I digress.
Personally, I agree with those who have said it would have to be a fantastic, unique, spellbinding plug for it to be worth purchase. Likewise, I think Martin's point about it being a high standard of quality to strive for is strong. If you fail to impress, nobody buys, You'd have to top the last plug that people bought, and that might bring some heirarchy to the competition of plug authoring. The goal, in this case, could be as businesslike as making a higher profit in a quarter, which would be a sure sign your work is popular. Very quanitfiable, arguably. I'm not trying to say your only goal is money here, as the effort to money ratio is far from even a minimum-wage job. Satisfaction in knowing your work is worth something to people is the biggest payoff, at least in my opinion.
There is a problem, however, with those whose goals aren't so lofty. They see other folks charging for plugs, so why can't they? They could use a few bucks, after all. Minimal effort goes into something they price at $15. Sure, nobody is likely to buy it. But imagine a plug archive innundated with such hacks. When a new EVer explores the plug-in side of things, wouldn't ranks among ranks of $15 super-cheat plugs give them a second thought about participating? The community might possibly be robbed of a few new members, new blood, new potential.
All I'm saying is, no matter how widely agreed a shareware plug is to be top-notch and worth the dough, you're going to see people pleading the "he did it, why can't I?" defense for putting a monetary value on EV plugs. It's been a free system for so long now, such that introducing fees would be a major change to the whole community. Perhaps. I'm only being speculative here.
------------------ - () () / }{ - (url="http://"http://www.pacifier.com/~kkey/shipyard/index.html")Onyx's EV Shipyard(/url)
Honestly, Martin, I think you should talk to Ambrosia. EVN doesn't really have a good scheme in place for supporting shareware plugins, but you have a proven enough track record - I'm almost sure that when they see your finished product, they'll be willing to help you publish it. I mean, they have a similar policy in place for ColdStone engine games, so why not try it?
-reg
------------------ "Oh crap. I'm going to hell - I put the Bible next to Mein Kampf again." -Her Holiness, Pope Jenne "Kirby" Hubbs
I seriously doubt that Ambrosia will go into talks with Martin unless Ambrosia decides to release the next version of EVN incorporating support for a radically new, encrypted plug-in format, or Martin wants to change the engine. As it is, EVN plug-ins are too susceptible to casual piracy (no copy-protection to speak of, easily editable, etc).
I dunno man, I just think that it'd change the scope of the community too much. There are insurmountable problems, like everyone says the engine isn't designed to support plugin restrictions, many people in the community would have a problem with crippleware, binding contracts are a problem, piracy would be a major problem and it'd open the floodgates for every little 14 year old kid and his dog to release crappy TCs with a price tag. I just think that the EV development community has been based on sharing your work for so long that charging would damage the scene. We'd stop being people who made plugs to get our work seen and for the joy of creating and sharing a universe that previously only existed in our heads, and it's one of the key motivations in purchasing NOVA. I know that I thought 'great, there'll be some really neat plugs to come from this, and I'm making one to pay back those great plugs.'
Okay, so maybe not that generous of thought, but hell, I'm on a team doing graphics, which are arguably the hardest part of a plug. Why? Because people will enjoy them, because UER&D; is a good writer, and because people will enjoy his story half again as much if they have good graphics. Never has the thought of profit entered my mind, and nor should it, plugs are about expanding the game's life for the community here, and for the completly selfish aim of attaining the joy, respect and satisfaction that come from making something that people like.
Another example, it costs nothing but time to make a plug, or it doesn't have to cost anything (unless you buy evone, or a modeller or something, but you don't have to). Mission computer is free, in the spirit of the ev community, novatools is free, and there are satisfactory products out there to do graphics with for free. The cost of making a plug can be as little as you need it to be.
I said it before and I'll say it again: If you feel you have to charge for a plug, then the plug in question is too much work. Profits? You'll make more spending the precious plug in time working on a real job, or your own piece of software. Once you go beyond that line where the fun of creating something worthwhile becomes the hassle of making something that eats your time, thats time to vapourwave the plug, or put it on hold.
~A~
------------------ "How can I make it go faster?" -Me-
Originally posted by UE_Research & Development: I seriously doubt that Ambrosia will go into talks with Martin unless Ambrosia decides to release the next version of EVN incorporating support for a radically new, encrypted plug-in format, or Martin wants to change the engine. As it is, EVN plug-ins are too susceptible to casual piracy (no copy-protection to speak of, easily editable, etc).
The commitment on Ambrosia's part is really negligible. I'd imagine it would sort of be an EVO style thing, with only very few (if any) modifications to the engine, but a new set of data files and a licensing scheme that ASW can back, probably with a discount for existing owners of EVN. All they'd have to do is change the checksum that the engine runs against the original data files.
Originally posted by UncleTwitchy: **Well, I'm enough of a Scorpio that the guy's attitude made me want to prove him wrong -- and made me want to do it badly. **
Right on man! Show him that he's wrong!
Of course I'm in favour of teams but thats because I can't do graphics for ****. But teams are harder to manage and there have been some really high quality one-man works.
------------------ Hey! If I want cheesey poofs, I'll get cheesey poofs! -Eric Cartman Law Enforcer "Respect my Authorita!"
I still think donationware is the only feasible way this would work.
------------------ Starfleet Adventures: A Star Trek TC for EVN (url="http://"http://www.ev-nova.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=145") Discussion Board (/url) Starfleet Adventures (url="http://"http://www.ev-nova.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=71")Progress Log(/url) denki's Starfleet Adventures (url="http://"http://www.geocities.com/starfleet_adventures/")FAQ page(/url) It is better to feed the goat than it is today.
quote: Bar pics: some done - these will largely be stylish photos of stylish or otherwise bars rather than renderings
Are these like planetary pictures, replacing some of the landing pictures, or have you found a way(auto-activating mission with movie, perhaps) to show a seperate picture every time you enter a bar? Sounds intriguing.
Nova already has bar pictures implemented, it is just one of those poorly documented features that no one ever hears about. You put the ID of the picture you want to show up in the bar into the Graphic field of the desc for the bar, and it will show up in the game. Pict 8504 is the picture for the bar with pict interface itself, its in Nova Graphics 3
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Yes, thats what I forgot to mention. I am bang alongside the idea of donationware, and would even consider supporting the format monetarily. Essentially donationware gives you the option of showing your gratitude, and tells you how to do it (it's akin to european tipping, you pay if the service is good, and not if it's crap).