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After reading Masamune's very interesting post about acceptability and the borders of such stated acceptability, I decided to try something out myself.
While reading, I wasn't disturbed so much about the less-relevant discussion on the acceptability of said content, but about how some people commented on mission desc lengths. I have some very long descs for Retribution, and I need to know on this subject what is 'acceptable' in terms of length and what is not:
(Please note that these are 'first drafts', and by no means are polished, cut for revision, clarified, or have even been edited yet. As well, the <s> and <p> shorthand refers to 'ship name' and 'player name'; the reason I used these instead of the normal tags goes back a long way and would probably bore you if I narrated it here.)
1. Short Passage
"...Reactor parts receipt in hand, you head back towards your vessel, and quickly find Aynaar. He examines the smudged receipt, and then hands the slip back to you, patting you on the back with a heavy slap.
You were quite a perceptive student back on Moonlight, he tells you. I can see that the intuitive intelligence you carry with you will serve you well in the coming days. He stares into your eyes, concern crossing his face. You do realize that we have nowhere to turn as refugees?
I understand. You look down at the dirty floor.
You dont have to be so shy. Come out with me, and Ill show you what Ill be doing with these reactor components. He maneuvers the freighter onto the service deck, and then hops out the open airlock doors. Surveying the containers of components with obvious satisfaction, he beckons you to come down and see."
2. Medium-length Passage
"It is later that you, Erion, and Aynaar are sitting together at a table and discussing the events of the day.
That was truly impressive, <p>. Ive never seen anyone take the initiative quite like that before. Erion wearily shakes your hand in compliment. And your friend Aynaar is a very competent coordinator, he adds in response to Aynaars piercing look. Both of you have picked up your duties remarkably quickly.
Although it remains unspoken, both of you know that you now know his words to be true your factory staff and you now understand each other perfectly and work together as one entity. Its not that hard, given as you have few options anyways.
I see. He looks down sadly. Most of us have been here since the sixth progenitor generation, forever mired in poverty. You need only look out the window to see ruin. Entire slums built underneath long-derelict structures. Channels of chemical poison running down alleys. The NSE gave up infrastructure maintenance in many districts decades ago; this is one of those sectors. What we do to patch up our factories, our homes, and our streets comes directly out of our own treasuries.
You sigh. I know I grew up in Moonlight as well. I havent seen very much of the universe yet they say that the Neo-Socialist Enlightenment possesses more than twenty systems, and that the worlds within the Core gleam with wealth and prosperity. The Enlightenment You fight to keep down your emotions. They took away what I had but they also allowed me to attain this position. And they fought against the Naztain so long ago I wonder if Ill ever visit those worlds that the NSE despoiled with their nuclear weapons, and see if they were actually justified in doing so.
Dreams, <p>. For us, at least. We are hopeless; you are not. Perhaps one of these days that will happen.
You gradually come to know your workers as friends and allies, even more so after the machinery incident, paying for their most urgent emergencies out of your own pocket. Even the occasional sounds of gunfire do not stop you from visiting families and the other managers.
One day, while inspecting the work being conducted far below, you lose your step upon the oily walkway. As you feel your feet giving way and see the horrified expression upon Aynaars face, you begin to plunge into the abyss.
Suddenly, two burly workers and a young technician grab you by the arms. As the four of you slide off into the void, you notice the harness each individual has strapped on. Your fall is broken only after only a short distance; as you smile in delirious relief the factory personnel calmly swing you back towards the ledge. "
3. Long Passage - note: this was written long before Masamune's post
"Enlightenment Yard is probably the station maintained the most thoroughly by Enlightenment officials. Even so, you find the pervasive stench of ozone billowing through the crowded hallways unbearable. Aynaar activates his TracComp, as the two of you push through the captains, engineers, technicians, SCD operators, and Enlightenment officials filling the corridors. Finally, the two thugs enter a secured conference room deep within the station. As the door slowly shuts, you and Aynaar duck into the dimly lit auditorium and hide near the back.
Are we all secured? Did you check for covert listening devices? Yes? Well, judging from what Borar here has said about you
The scarred man finishes the statement, his voice grating across the cavernous room. You couldnt find a listening device if it was the size of an asteroid miner, placed right in the middle of this room, and emblazoned with the emblem of the Navy of Sol. Why did I have to work with him? Why?
You peek up over the seats. You can see the massive Enlightenment emblem hanging behind the podium and illuminated by harsh floodlighting; by raising your head a few more centimeters the three men talking amongst each other become visible.
This isnt much different from the normal drug-running that I do among the slums. Only, we havent been harassed by any regional NSE politicians yet the bribes National Department and the NSE higher-ups told us to freely dispense must be working. The person who had been waiting in the auditorium continues.
Or perhaps youve been scaring them with your criminal activities. I hear the Moonlight Dogs, our crime ring loosely affiliated with the Department, has been resisting our attempts to relocate indentured technicians and construct new facilities.
Borar groans condescendingly. Be realistic, he pleads. You see him flexing his sinewy muscles, a silhouette against the brightly illuminated stage. I need my fix of pleasure it helps me think right. Those worthless slum-dwellers I came to collect my physical dues a while ago, and some moron decided that he wanted to interfere. You know how much fun I have with this one managers daughter? He sighs as if recalling a pleasurable thought, and you retch.
Shut up. I dont care if youre 19 and the most successful crime-lord this sector of the Enlightenment (which you are, because if you werent, youd be dead, not my boss), youre supposed to be trafficking in technicians, not women. Skilled labor we need, because thats what the Department has mandated. If you dont want in, our enforcers have plenty of methods to ensure that you dont come out with what you seem to value the most
You sick man! He curses at the lackey, gets up and stretches, sucking in his stomach. As he turns around, he catches a glimpse of you
Wait! Theres something moving! His heavy footsteps thud upon the concrete aisle as he runs towards you.
4. Really long passage - this is what I'm really worried about; although it's rare, it takes up much more than a page typed.
Through the transparent rear of the lift you can see the rest of the city and even the bottom street levels, shrinking away from you as you rise.
The lift stops, the doors glow and slide open. You are ushered out into a private hygiene room and left alone with a set of clothes covered by a thin transparent membrane. As soon as you touch the membrane, it begins to melt away. You take your finger off.
The door is locked, but the lavatory is clean enough, with tiled floors and recessed lighting. You see what seems to be an enclosed cubicle in the corner, you walk over and tap the glass front gently. It slides open.
You step inside and strip yourself bare. Examining the internal control panel, you decide to press the button marked Start. As your finger brushes over the circular marking, the glass front slides back into place, a set of lights come on, and the cubicle-like device begins filling with thick foam and warm water.
Soon, you are completely immersed in the fragrant solution and lost in blissful comfort. The solution slowly drains away and you watch as blasts of water pelt your back and front. Eventually, the front section slides away again; you notice that you are completely dry as you get out, melt the rest of the membrane, and don the new clothes you were offered.
Your escort silently leads you back to the lift, up ten more stories, and into a conference room. Like the slum-dweller you once were, you are amazed at the carpet, at the massive plate-glass windows that wrap around the room, and at the plethora of electronic devices contained within the room. David sits down opposite of you. A young man with yellow hair and blue eyes, he is dressed in an Orion District business uniform.
<p>, you are here today not because of what you have been able to achieve, but because of the potential we see within you. Without any formal education as to speak of, your innate tact and intelligence have served you well.
You nod. Youve already said that. What do you want to tell me?
Analysis of standardized testing batteries covering reasoning, comprehension, and spatial visualization skills that youve taken have revealed that your brain is completely normal. However, what you have done with what youve been allocated is anything but. He coughs, takes a sip of water, and continues. The Orion District maintains a military force that fends off Enlightenment aggression. Each task-force is assigned to one or two strategic corporate or technological initiatives this is why we called you here.
He keys a set of wireframe schematics that flash in mid-air. Our personnel make good businesspeople, but they dont have the strategic insight, resolve, or abilities of comprehension that are required to make a good military leader. Weve decided to instate you as the commander of one of these task-forces
You cut him off. Youve hardly met me, and youre trusting me to something like this? Could you explain?
David just laughs. Id trust Erion with my life; we grew up together. Even after his family was deported to Moonlight right after the Second Human War, right after the end of the Naztain war, we kept in touch. And you have no reason to betray us all our enemies are affiliated with the Enlightenment.
Well youre right, I suppose. What do you want me to do? I dont know anything about commanding a military force. You look out the window and gasp as a massive warship lifts off one spaceport platform, gracefully angling its nose towards the sky before thrusting off into space.
Heh, thats a Navy of Sol Victory-class battlecruiser. I hear that theres a real behemoth, the Vengeance, even bigger than that ship out there. Its supposed to be the most powerful warship in the human sector. Now listen: I want you to report to Rigel X in the Rigel system, the other Orion District system. There, youll undergo training. He falls silent, smiling at you.
Aynaar and you are escorted back to the spaceport, where you diligently prepare the <s> for flight.
------------------ Retribution: An Upcoming Plug-in for EVN. Visit the (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/cgi-bin/ubb/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&number;=20&SUBMIT;=Go")Chronicles(/url) today! Be sure to read the short story ' (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/cgi-bin/ubb/newsdisplay.cgi?action=topics &number;=20&forum;=*EV/EVO+chronicles&DaysPrune;=100&article;=000262&startpoint;=")Fiery Descent(/url)'! (url="http://"http://www.cwssoftware.com")Sephil Saga(/url): An upcoming TC, visit the web page today.| | | Both the best and the worst plug-in editor for Windows! (url="http://"http://www.aznt.com/EVN/EVNEW")EVNEW(/url)!
Sounds like you already know the answer. If you feel that you have to title a passage as "long" and "really long" it's probably too long. Try condensing what you've written by editing out text that doesn't add anything. This is something I've had to remember myself. I find reading some of the Nova descs helps when I start getting carried away and feel that I'm writing too much. The Nova descs were short but didn't leave anything out and still managed to convey a feeling and create an environment. As was mentioned in Masamune's topic, be a minimalist. Be brutal when editing your text - but don't be careless. You should edit your text like a samurai in a sword fight. Carefully choose your steps then stike quickly and decisively. That said. I can't really say what's an appropriate length. I think that's up to you. Remember though that people aren't playing Nova (or any TC variant) to read a book. The story gives the game purpose but the purpose of the game is to be played.
------------------ ((Ż'ˇ.¸(Ż'ˇ.¸Ť-KAME-ť¸.ˇ'´Ż)¸.ˇ'´Ż)) I used to jog but the ice kept falling out of my glass. (url="http://"http://www.0three0.net/l-1551/")L 1551(/url) - The official site of RONIN and The Way and the ten thousand things
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Azzy, being big on charachtery things, doesnt really mind long descs - as long as they are kept meaningful. If I was the type to just try to do the missions just to get extra outfits or such, long descs would be wasted on me. I wouldnt mind a few really long ones at times it would be meaningful, if they're well written and such, but they shouldnt be an every-mission thing. Maybe 5% or less of descs tops would want to be that long - most should be short or medium, with a few long and even fewer really long ones; -Az
------------------ It is here. EVNEW Public Beta (url="http://"http://www.aznt.com/EVN/EVNEW")www.aznt.com/EVN/EVNEW(/url) Stuffit is a piece of .sit.
It kinda depends on how much of the text relates to what your doing. Keep in mind that in Video 3 seconds can be a long time to hold a camara shot on a scene as they say that after that period of time the mind wanders. Then again if the subject matter is what is the draw and it is a highly charged scene people can forget to be bored. LOL for whatever that advice may be worth.
Anyways sometimes less is more effective.
------------------ Nothing like the smell of burnt rubber in the morning. - Now let's see some Tiresmoke! (url="http://"http://www.rsdg.net")www.rsdg.net(/url)
I really don't mind long text; as long as I'm interested, I'll keep reading.
I'm a big fan of short text though, but I really don't care. Just keep it cool, and I will read.
------------------ And there's more where that came from!
I'll read any length of text, as long as it's not a thesis.
------------------ The programmer's code of entomology: there's always another bug. Windows users: stop asking for plugins. (url="http://"http://www.aznt.com/EVN/EVNEW/")Make one yourself.(/url) (url="http://"http://www.cwssoftware.com")Sephil Saga Website(/url)
Yeah, cutting is good. That'll be what Editing, Revising, and Rewriting will be for. However...
Are even a few really long descs good? And who on here likes reading/plot/characters more as opposed to just shooting? The story necessitates that the first portion of the plug-in be kind of slow in regards to action, but it picks up drastically later on. Is that acceptable? Will people understand that they won't be taking part in massive battles two weeks after taking the controls of a starship for the first time in their life?
And how's the writing? Is it awful? Is it good? Is it too 'artificial' or melodramatic? Is it too sappy? And the others... These are all things I can (hopefully) change later on.
Quote
Originally posted by UE_Research & Development: **Yeah, cutting is good. That'll be what Editing, Revising, and Rewriting will be for. However...
**
Ha, I wonder the same thing about my main plug. The first half of the plug is your character learning how to live in harmony with the universe. The latter half is your race trying to survive the onslaught of the Federation.
As far as your writing is concerned... I think it's decent. It's not great but it's certainly not bad either. But... it doesn't really hold my attention. I find parts of it are just a bit long winded. A friend of mine spent much of her college career in writing classes and something that had a big impact on her was something one of her professors said about writing. He said that to really create good writing you can't just tell the reader what's happening. You have to describe the aura of the scene and involve the reader. You have to feel what you want to write, then rather than decribing the scene and the characters and the emotions, you have to put what you see, taste, feel, smell, hear all to words. You want to express your abstract thoughts about a scene in a way that the reader can have the same feeling. I can't really tell you the difference very well since I'm not a writer and I'm not at all well read to give you examples of authors. I think the key is to describe particular things in detail but don't descibe everything and don't descibe every detail. I'm kinda reminded of the movie, "Signs." I didn't really care much for the movie but what really struck me was the use of sound. Everything was always very quiet except for a particular kind of sound. Sharp, high pitch noices. The creak of a door... the metallic ring from a knife being pulled off a shelf. It's these things created the mood and pulled the viewer in... created suspense.
Anyway, maybe these are some points you're already aware of. Your writing shows glimpses of it here and there and then you'll go back to "telling" again. It's a fine line. That's where editing comes it And I'm really the last person to be critiquing someone's writing.
Eh, I keep re-reading what you've written and I'm realizing that all of this may not apply, but I figure I'll post it anyway. Someone might find it helpful
Wow, UE, you totally read my mind... I was waiting for the original topic to die down a bit, but this was EXACTLY my next question.
Personally, I like to read. I like long descriptions, even if they only add flavor. I think it adds to the immersive aspect of the plug. I have no problems with pages of text. However, people like me (and apparently Azratax and yourself) seem to be in the minority as far as the EVN-playing community goes. Which is too bad, but I think we'll have to learn to cope. For my part, I'm going to try and remember KISS- Keep It Simple, Stupid- at least as far as writing goes. I'm going to try and limit the textual extravaganzas to the parts that really need it. Determining that is easier said than done, I suppose, but that's what beta testers are for.
And since we're on the topic of beta testing, I say take advantage of it. When in doubt, go long. Make sure the beta testers know to gage their responses to all descs- do they want more or less here? It's usually easier to go long and cut than to go short, period. Masamune's rule of writing.
As far as you actual writing goes, this is basically what I've been meaning to tell you about your SS stuff: I think it's very good. Very comparable to my own work (for good or bad) tone and pace wise. It does get a bit wordy at times, but I think the biggest problem (and I know I share it) is that you spend time describing needless action. All the way back to the first post, you describe the exchange of the reciept to <that dude>, and him giving it back. IMHO, unnecessary, even in context. It could easily be shortenned to "<Dude> examines the reciept." or even taken out completely. This kind of thing happens throughout the passages. Like I said, this is a major problem with my own work, so I understand why it's there. I'll discuss your other samples with you over on our forum- but I pretty much agree right-on with Hector, who I know has given you feedback.
------------------ ~Charlie Sephil Saga Homepage: (url="http://"http://www.cwssoftware.com")www.cwssoftware.com(/url)
I find parts of it are just a bit long winded.
True, that's why I hope to improve it during Editing by condensing and clarifying.
You have to feel what you want to write, then rather than decribing the scene and the characters and the emotions, you have to put what you see, taste, feel, smell, hear all to words. You want to express your abstract thoughts about a scene in a way that the reader can have the same feeling.
Show, not Tell. It's a simple principle, but awfully hard to achieve in practicality. Again, I hope that that'll be something rectifiable during editing, but it's really good advice that all writers should heed. I tried to use Show, but obviously I lapsed into Tell quite a few times. However, I think that I have more now that's better in this regard, and it should need less cutting work.
...you spend time describing needless action.
True again. That'll be taken care of eventually.
Any more comments? The more I hear the better I become. And thoughts on the subject? Feel free to post- heck, if you want, Masamune, post some more of your writing here. As long as more than 3 people take the time to read through my initial post.
And two more quick comments: it's more difficult to write in 2nd person, present tense, as opposed to 3rd person, past tense (see Fiery Descent, signature, if you want to see my more conventional writing). And some of the sequences involve the player doing stuff on the ground, so those'll be pretty long. Maybe I can get some pictures or even a movie to spice things up and keep attention for longer. ------------------ Retribution: An Upcoming Plug-in for EVN. Visit the (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/cgi-bin/ubb/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&number;=20&SUBMIT;=Go")Chronicles(/url) today! Be sure to read the short story ' (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/cgi-bin/ubb/newsdisplay.cgi?action=topics &number;=20&forum;=*EV/EVO+chronicles&DaysPrune;=100&article;=000262&startpoint;=")Fiery Descent(/url)'! (url="http://"http://www.cwssoftware.com")Sephil Saga(/url): An upcoming TC, visit the web page today.| | | Both the best and the worst plug-in editor for Windows! (url="http://"http://www.aznt.com/EVN/EVNEW")EVNEW(/url)!
(This message has been edited by UE_Research & Development (edited 01-15-2004).)
Most excellent writing, UE. I too love reading, especially if the story is good. While several people may not like long descriptions, no one is forcing them to read it. However, for those who enjoy long descriptions equally or better than the actual gameplay, long descriptions are quite good to have. This is especially true in games like Nova, where, unfortunately, many of these battles become quite repetitive- nothing you do really has an effect on the storyline. If you fail the mission, you try again. And again. All Nova really is is seek and destroy. A good story to give reasoning to this, coupled with varied mission designs and goals, definitely makes for an enjoyable experience.
Another thing to think on- It is indefinitely better to have a lot of content, and need to cut things out than it is to have no content, and need to fill it with "fluff". Aim high.
~ SpacePirate
------------------ Eat blazing electric death!
I'd like to see Azdara's comments upon this topic, especially because it pertains probably the most to him. But it's good to see that some people do enjoy long mission descs.
So...it seems as if a few long descriptions are acceptable. However, I have sequences in which several pages of material is delivered through three or four boxes (these are usually action sequences or explanatory sequences with lots of dialogue). Are those okay? Is it okay to have long descs as long as you make the 'quick briefing' tell the player what he/she needs to do?
What you could do for the long descs would be to give the player the choice first, then continue with the story. Then, people who are in a hurry can click yes or no, while others would keep reading.
Nothing wrong with a long desc so long as the contents are relivant to the mission or in someway needed to know info the player has to use in the game. Sometimes you find that flowery prose lose an audience quicker then a poorly writen peice that is too the point.