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Okay, okay, but could someone at least look at some of the EASIER balance changes I suggested, and others suggested? Being a Windows user, I am unable to make a balance plugin of the easy, simple, "just stat-modifying" features I kinda think would make gameplay flow a lot better... perhaps someone could look at THOSE, or suggest those kinds of tiny GAMEPLAY features? You know, the ones that can be done as balance changes to this number here or this value there...
In essence, I'm saying, "Someone PLEASE spend an evening making a plugin to do the easy, cheap balance changes, please!"
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(This message has been edited by Gluegun (edited 04-20-2003).)
Mostly what I mean is balance for the PLAYER to try different tactics from within any one storyline. Like, government ships (from any government...) should usually be better than less-expensive civilian ships... and more expensive weapons that are easily obtained while a civilian should each have a strategic place... take blasters vs chainguns vs fpc's vs railguns... all are easily obtainable... but fpc's whoop all except capital ship mounted chainguns...
I mean check out this: (url="http://"http://www.evula.com/survival_guide/evn-outfits/blasters.html")http://www.evula.com...s/blasters.html(/url) versus this: (url="http://"http://www.evula.com/survival_guide/evn-outfits/auroran.html")http://www.evula.com...ts/auroran.html(/url)
FPC's outdo blasters, chainguns are obsolete with fpc's, small railguns are mostly useless, etc. etc..
In essence, I believe that the user should be rewarded with creatively mixing and matching different outfits for different strategies, and each weapon type should have a distinct purpose that makes no individual weapon almost always better than another one. The same goes for ships. In the fed storyline, it is incredibly easy to start that storyline with a good used starbridge or a mod c. then, as a "reward" for being in the storyline, you get access to more expensive, inferior, military ships which, by all accounts, should be far better --for some strategies at least-- than your civilian counterpart.
Here are some specific weapon and outfit issues that I have...
weapons: (url="http://"http://www.evula.com/survival_guide/evn-outfits/blasters.html")http://www.evula.com...s/blasters.html(/url) (url="http://"http://www.evula.com/survival_guide/evn-outfits/auroran.html")http://www.evula.com...ts/auroran.html(/url)
*There seems to be no reason to use Blasters instead of FPC's. FPC's are cheaper than medium blasters, do more mass and energy damage, go MUCH MUCH farther, do splash damage, and are heavier. Why are blasters so outdone?? there should be some reason to use blasters... FPC's need to be nerfed or other guns strengthened
*There seems to be no reason to use a 100mm fixed railgun in any light capital ship. While it costs much, much more than an FPC and weighs much much more, it does less damage, fires more slowly, and is all around very sucky compared to FPC's. There is no reason even to add 100mm's as a main gun to a light capital ship, even if you have the space; fpc's are better. I think that light railguns should be lighter, fire faster, and cheaper and do more armor damage.
I also think that, as primary ships, small fighters should be more usable. IMO, this means making every ship that the player can get have at least three jumps, maybe more, and space to add more fuel... and i think guns for little ships should be a bit more feasible too. specificially, I think that hail chainguns, as weapons, should cost more, weigh less, not use bought ammo (why make a sucky, cheap weapon even suckier?), have longer range do more mass damage and take up either primary or secondary slots... ideally, one should be able to get, say, a wild geese lightning, do sigma upgrades on it, get a bunch of light cannons for energy drain, a bunch of hail chainguns for armor drain, and have that outfit be a feasible way to kill things.. reward the player for relying on nonstandard weapons and tactics.. so I also think light cannons should do a bit more energy damage and have longer range.. wouldnt this be an awesome strategy, or am I fooling myself..?
I haven't tested other governments, but I have found that, pound for pound, the military fed ships are worse than their civilian counterparts...
Compare the Valkyrie: (url="http://"http://www.evula.com/survival_guide/evn-ships/stats/civ_valk.html")http://www.evula.com...s/civ_valk.html(/url) with the Scout ship: (url="http://"http://www.evula.com/survival_guide/evn-ships/stats/fed_scout.html")http://www.evula.com.../fed_scout.html(/url)
The scout ship (??) doesn't have more jump capability (which it should, it is a scout ship...), is slower (this part REALLY confuses me... a SCOUT SHIP?), costs more, has worse shields, has fewer guns...
Lets assume that the player got to the point in the fed storyline where they get the scout ship, and they got there in a bad used valkyrie. Thus the scout ship should be an upgrade... but it is not..
The scout ship is military instead of civilian, is more expensive, and given as a reward for doing a plotline (which should be a reward for the player...), is smaller, is made for scouting and insertion and such... so it should do a few things...
have more weapon mounts, even if they aren't used (someone might want to mount more guns on it...) should be faster and one of the more manueverable ships out there should have better shields, at least as good as the valkyrie and it should have enough fuel so that it won't remotely need to get any battery packs... maybe seven or eight would be good Also, it should be possible to get the scout ship MUCH EARLIER in the fed storyline... perhaps still while doing the six cargo missions, to enable the player to run from the auroran fighters better, as would be good roleplaying and good for the plot at that moment? I don't mean authorize the player to BUY the ship from the shipyard 24/7, but, as a one time thing, have the commander that talks in the wierd accent put it in his shipyard for the character to purchase as a "one time only thing". Then, LATER, get the full authority to purchase it normally...
Lets compare the Patrol boat to it's "equal", the starbridge.
*They both cost the same *One is military, the other civilian *They both are the same size *The patrol boat is given as a reward, while one can just buy the starbridge.
These are relatively close, but as the military version, the patrol boat should be better, imo, especially since it is a reward. As a reward ship, I think this needs to be upgraded... at least give all of the variants more speed, another gun hardpoint or two, and have more fuel..
But ideally, I think this should have a fifth version, a "Bureau of Internal Investigation Variant", or some sort of elite guard type, which should have more speed, shields, weapon space, and guns. Make this one cost more, and That would be VERY cool... think of those black FBI cars in GTA3... the Bureau version of the Patrol boat should be like that, but it doesnt have to LOOK different than normal patrol boats.. Think of it as the high tech black ships the bureu comes in to catch someone. God, that'd be so cool. And all you would have to do is change some numbers -- it wouldn't have to look different. Hehehe. "Bureau Patrol Boat". Something that's an answer to the Pirate Valks...
Lets see... what else... I've already said most of my other things in this thread. cool.
I have to agree with you on those. BTW, the supposed 'advantage' to the 100mm railgun is that it has a much longer range than the FPC. Of course, I still won't put them on my Mod Starbridge...
Another thing, with the Fed Scout Ship, think less along the lines of the Thunderhead (the route you're taking now) and more along the lines of the SR-71. No weapons whatsoever (maybe a pair of light cannon at most) but faster than a greased bat outta hell.
And I agree that the Scout Ship and the Patrol Boat absolutely suck (it's sad that an Abomination, if flown right, can beat a pair of Patrol Boats), and that I'd really like to see Bureau variants of both of those.
------------------ Suddenly, the little scoutship disappeared and then reappeared right behind the alien warfleet. The gravitic ship's captain hailed the armada. "You are going to be destroyed, but I will give you a choice as to how you want to spend eternity: big pieces, little pieces, or quarks?" Dead silence. "Quarks it is, then."
Quote
Originally posted by spacecowboy: **I have to agree with you on those. BTW, the supposed 'advantage' to the 100mm railgun is that it has a much longer range than the FPC. Of course, I still won't put them on my Mod Starbridge...
**
Would you rather put 200 mm Railguns then? (Mod E comes with 2 as standard). Fast, I dont know... The Scoutship in EVO is made for exploring the north. It has almost no weapons, but is still not as fast a Crescent Fighter (I take greased batt outta hell as a fighterfast). The Lazira is still faster, even if it Ãs a medium warship (like Destroyer). And did you know that the reason Patrol Boat sucks is because Aurorans designed Abomination to counter it. Ill quote its desc: "The Auroran technicians created this monstrous gunship in response to the threat of the Federation Patrol Boat. The Abomination mounts twin FPCs as its armament, which are more than sufficient to rip through the light hull of the Patrol Boat. A severe lack of maneuverability makes it vulnerable to attack from capital ship sized weapons, though, which make short work of its armor." Okay? Its meant to whoop the Patrol Boat with 2 Fusion Pulse Batteries (thats the FPCs the desc is talking about), but die against warships because its slow. The counter for Abomination is RAGE Gunboat. The counter exists, but is not used when the game starts. "In an attempt to combat the Abomination and the Striker, Federation Scientists have developed the Reactive Armor General Equipment (RAGE) Gunboat. The reactive armor plating is nearly impenetrable to lesser weapons, and the ship has outstanding speed and maneuverability for a vessel its size."
Edit- A Bureau version would be cool though. When youre flying for the Feds you get this special version! It could screw up balance though, making Rebel Thunderheads useless. ------------------ I am eager to try to ansver mission questions
(This message has been edited by General Cade Smart (edited 04-22-2003).)
Well, I think a Bureau version of a patrol boat should be a lot faster and have lighter armor, but better shielding... and be really rare, cause they are meant to combat internal threats, and not be on the Auroran / Federation border. It would get political dissidents and pirates and rebels and such....
With the 100mm railgun, all I am saying is that they are much more useless than fpc's, and they cost lots more than fpc's, and weigh lots more, and fire much more slowly... this should be fixed. 200mm's are useful because those can be good primary weapons for your big huge gigantic type ship.
As far as scoutships go, this isn't EV:O. The two scoutships would have different missions. The one in EV:O is made for civilians to use for early colonization and long range trade... The one the Federation uses is probably for recon missions in the hostile empires when they can't spare a Vell-os arrow or don't trust a Vell-os for that particular job. At least give it some mounts for more guns, on the off chance that some pilots at an early response station want to outfit them with a decent amount of guns to make them a better-surviving long range heavy fighter / scout (and for the mere fact that more guns would make it better for the PLAYER, since remember, this game is about gameplay!) That means that it should probably be at least 50 units of speed faster than it is now and have a lot more fuel for extended missions deep into, say, the Auroran Empire.
On the subject of Auroran weaponry: I think the 100m do a pretty good gob with their faster rate of fire and higher accuracy vs. 200m railguns. I'm still undecided about FPCs, though it is often hard in the early stages of the game to pass up putting FPCs on your small ship.
Recoil, however is my favorite addon for them. Railguns should definitely have recoil. Chainguns probably should as well, though they look a little more silly when one sees a firebird attempting to fire these.
Miscellaneous:
Originally posted by Gluegun: ** ideally, one should be able to get, say, a wild geese lightning, do sigma upgrades on it, get a bunch of light cannons for energy drain, a bunch of hail chainguns for armor drain, and have that outfit be a feasible way to kill things..
Frankly, I feel that this would be the worst thing you could do to the game. What you seem to want is a cheap way to rule the galaxy. But you're not going to be able to do that in a fighter. At least, not without a lot of work. I mean, in Star Wars, how did Han Solo destroy the Imperial Star Destroyers around Hoth?
Answer: he didn't. The Corellian Freighter is simply not in the ISD's class. Period. No matter how much you load on it.
Ditto with a Nebulon-B frigate, the Corellian Corvette, and so on. They can't be upgraded to such a high standard.
And to keep it real, fighters will always suck compared to battleships.
Cheers, Guapo
------------------ "Quote it, paraphrase it, soak it in peanut oil and set it on fire. I don't mind in the least." - forge Founding Member of WORRPBOITAMPSH (url="http://"http://guapohq.jonpearse.net")GuapoHQ - for all your Guapo needs(/url) (url="http://"http://insanekp.tripod.com")The Insane Klown Posse Website!!!(/url)
Originally posted by Gluegun: **
*There seems to be no reason to use Blasters instead of FPC's. FPC's are cheaper than medium blasters, do more mass and energy damage, go MUCH MUCH farther, do splash damage, and are heavier. Why are blasters so outdone?? there should be some reason to use blasters... FPC's need to be nerfed or other guns strengthened **
I agree totally on this. FPC's are just too damn good. Get 6 of them on a StarBridge and you can take on anything. And why can't you get a Heavy Blaster? The turrets are good, but why can't you get just a normal heavy blaster?
Originally posted by Gluegun: ** I also think that, as primary ships, small fighters should be more usable. IMO, this means making every ship that the player can get have at least three jumps, maybe more, and space to add more fuel **
I also agree totally with this. In the plug im creating, the small fighters are going to be longer ranged. Their smaller, so they have smaller engines, so they use less fuel/energy. I know they havent got the space for much fuel/energy but 2 jumps? Thats pathetic. You could give them some kind of upgraded solar panel/fuel scoop that recharges fast enough so they don't need to carry much fuel/energy. And fighters should be faster. A viper, which is supposed to be a Racing Ship, is slower than a Pirate valk class IV. OK, OK, I know that the Valk is heavily upgraded, but the viper should have at least 600 speed.
Originally posted by Gluegun: ** The scout ship (??) doesn't have more jump capability (which it should, it is a scout ship...), is slower (this part REALLY confuses me... a SCOUT SHIP?), costs more, has worse shields, has fewer guns...
And this, I agree with. Totally. Wheres the fun of exploration in Nova? I remember in Override my first new ship was a Scoutship and I upgraded it with fuel tanks and fuel scoops and went of in search for new planets. That was great fun making contact with the Emelgha (sp?) and the Miranu. Theres none of that in Nova. Apart from Kontik, wow a whole 1 mission.
OK, that was a bit more bitchy than expected. Im sorry.
TheRedeemer
------------------ -"Children today are tyrants. They contradict their parents, gobble their food, and tyrannize their teachers." Socrates 460-399 BC. Some things never change! -'Politics? It becomes a lot more than just politics as soon as people start dying' - Warning - Do not attempt to operate a Spaceship while under the influence of Alcohol
I'm not saying that a wild geese lightning with sigma mount reinforcement and light cannons and hail chainguns should be able to take on a CARRIER all on it's own... I am saying that a good pilot in a medium or heavy fighter with a crapload of light guns should be able to FIGHT, and fight WELL. Give us a reason to want to get our actual piloting skills up in a fighter, by making them at least potentially deadly in the hands of a good pilot..
Mods: Is there any possibility of seeing these in 1.05? Could you pass on some of the latest comments to the people who are working on 1.05?
Yeah, I totally agree with all of Gluegun's points. What I typed here are my concerns with gameplay, although EVN ranks second of my favorite games.
In the Polaris string, the Arachnid becomes available right when the Scarab does, which is stupid. I bet you everyone automatically skips the Arachnid since it's not as good as the Scarab in all categories. It just doesn't make sense, game/ship progression wise. Also the Dragon should be upgraded in the armour and turn rate department. It is a light capital ship, so should be more maneuverable than it currently is.
I definately agree on the FPC/blaster/railgun/ arguments. The FPCs should either have more competition, or be downsized: Auroran tech is less advanced in the end. Blasters should be more destructive and their shots shouldn't waver all over the place as much. Heavy blasters should not be so damn heavy, and have a higher ROF. Railguns should be less heavy, and the 100mm and 150mm versions should have higher a ROF. Railguns should also have to be recharged with ammo, just like the chainguns: once again, a realistic drawback for less sophisticated weaponry. Chainguns should bypass shields, and be a contender for dogfight situations.
Capital ship wise: Fed carriers and Auroran carriers should be tougher. After I take out their exceedingly small number of fighters at a distance, I can take out 6+ without retreating in a Mod E Starbridge, or a Rebel destroyer. Auroran capital ships are too slow, and Abominations (although not a capital ship) drop like flies, and take an annoyingly slow amount of time to hyper-jump. The Raven needs to be able to shed heavy artillery more than it is capable now in my mind: would the penultimate vessel's shields retreat so quickly under a hail of primitive 200mm shells?
Also some ships should be much more involved in the game process, such as Lightnings, Thunderheads, Asteroid Miners, Patrol Boats, and Zephyrs. I seldom own these since there is an innate advantage to own others while they are all available at about the same time together. This is too bad, since they are all interesting and have good designs. No matter how hard I try, a Lightning and a Thunderhead just won't stand up to a regular Valk. I choose the Valk or Starbridge every time after my Heavy Shuttle. Incentive of some kind should be in place to use these other ships.
If this type of thing was in place in Nova, it would be my favorite game of all time. The sheer fact that there is no other game out there like Nova, the immense plotlines and choice of 6 compared to other games' 1 or 2, mass expandibility, and the diversity of ships and the ability to find out rad and personable weapons combos, defiantely more than make up for this shortfall. Atmos kicks some serious ass, and this is their first game, remember. Think of what they will do next.
Well... since chainguns, uhm, suck, shouldn't there be, you know, some MORE reasons to use them..? And I don't wanna nerf railguns, if anything, they should be improved...
Hmm... making chainguns bypass shields would be nice... or just make them stronger in a more normal way.
Ya.. looking at the Zephyr specs, it was kinda sad that such a badass looking ship seemed so puny.. :frown:
I haven't done the Polaris or the Auroran storylines, so I dont know much about them... but I'm quite sure that when I get to them, I'll see those problems...
Sometimes I go like this...
Heavy Shuttle -> Pirate Argosy (which I think should be improved, lol...) -> Bad used Valkyrie -> whatever...
And does anyone know any SPECIFIC, NUMERICAL values by which to make guns and ships, any and all, more balanced?
(This message has been edited by Gluegun (edited 04-23-2003).)
Ship improvements:
The Zephyr is actually a pretty decent ship compared to the Striker, due to its increased speed and cargo capacity (mass retool and thus greater weapon capacity). The increased armor, armor regen, and cloak compensates for the lesser shields.
Even the the Polaris admit that the Dragon is their weakest ship. Not sure what to do with this one.
The plain lightning may not be much, but the Wild Goose variant is quite worth it.
Same with the thunderhead. The civ thunderhead may not be much, but the pirate variant is worthwhile.
Argosies: Painful ships to fly. Decently armored and shielded and cheap, but..oh...so...slow. Perhaps make them more cargo-worthy for that speed and increase the cargo capacity to 50-60ish?
True, the Scarab is more powerful than the Arachnid. All I can offer here is that the Arachnid is more maneuverable, has greater CPL reach, and is nice to look at. The Arachnid is pretty, the Scarab is not.
Originally posted by Psygnosis Adherent: ** The Raven needs to be able to shed heavy artillery more than it is capable now in my mind: would the penultimate vessel's shields retreat so quickly under a hail of primitive 200mm shells?
Well, remember the Borg in "First Contact". They were immune to phaser fire (they adapted.)
So Jean-Luc Picard goes to the holodeck and pulls a machine gun.
RATATATATATATATATATATATATATA- and pop goes the borg!
The Scarab could be the same way.
Actually, wouldn't it be like they hadn't yet adapted to forcefields used as projectiles like that...?
First off, I'll state that EV-Nova is JUST A GAME. It's not completely perfect. It never has been, and never will be. That being said, I'll comment on some of these issues.
Originally posted by Gluegun: "You see what appears to be a representative for the Federation Navy looking for a good pilot. Do you approach? Yes / No" When you are about to consider entering a mission. I mean, heck, I felt BAD for turning down the Wild Geese subplot... I dont wanna feel that... someone should do that...
The storylines in EVN are extremely well written. You SHOULD feel bad about refusing the Wild Geese storyline. Just like you should feel evil for accepting the Bureau missions. They are designed to tamper with your emotions. The EVN world is more immersive and real then any of it's predecessors. You do not have complete control over the universe - you're only one man/woman. There are storyline descisions that are out of your control. That's just like real life.
** Money is too easy to get. Make us WORK for upgrades, and drool over them!**