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Originally posted by Macavenger: **I hate to admit it, but I think the Rebels in Star Wars have better justification than the Rebels here. Not that are Rebels aren't justified, I just think in Star Wars they have been much more oppressed, and the Empire in Star Wars really is a SCOURGE.;)
**
Although both rebellions do share some common reasons for war, I do agree that the rebellion in Star Wars fights for a much better cause. George Lucas did the perfect job of depicting an evil, large empire, who wanted nothing more then to destroy those who opposed their rule.
President of the Corsair Development Team (url="http://"http://artworks.tmgmedia.net")Corsair Homepage(/url) | (url="http://"http://pub57.ezboard.com/bcorsairdevelopers")Corsair Web Board(/url) | (url="http://"http://pub101.ezboard.com/bstarbasedelta")Starbase Delta(/url)
Well, since everyone seems to want to start a new debate on this at YKYGTHOEVW, I thought I'd resurrect this and we could do it at a more appropriate place. Sound good to everyone?
Originally posted by ChristopherH: **Of late, I have found myself finding many areas of agreement with David in the theme of Rebellion Vs. Confederation. It also has bothered me that the Rebels seem to use attacking civilian vessels such as shuttles, freighters and luxury liners as a tool of war against the Confederation. (It might be possible to justify the shuttles and freighters by saying they are aiding or abetting the Confederation war effort by delivery of supplys or carrying messages for the confederate military, but the same cannot be said about Luxury liners. For evidence, fly around in Capella or even in the Sol system and you will eventually witness Rebel ships attacking and destroying luxury liners.)
The Rebels also make use of assasination as a tool in their war with the Confederation. It might be possible to justify attacks on military leaders, but the assasination missions involve the killing of diplomats. These diplomats are not identified as being Secretary of War, Head of Security, etc. they are simply described as Senators or diplomats in general. Who is to say that these diplomats are not on a mission to start peace talks? Or being sent on a mission to try and find a way to end the conflict peacefully such as the Confederation being willing to allow the Rebels to withdraw from the Confederaton? (As David hinted about.)
Finally, the fact that the Rebels deal with Pirates is to me a major concern. In one particular mission, you are asked to attack a Confederate Munitions fleet and steal the munitions and take them to a PIRATE BASE. The mission ending text says you are met by a group of Rebels, yes, but the implication is at least that they are going to sell or at least share the munitions with the Pirates, persons that will use them to attack anyone for their own gain, including Rebel Civilians.**
There's been a lot of debate on this thread about the civilian ships deal, and David has not yet been able to prove to me satisfactorily that the Shuttles etc. are civilian vessels. I don't want to reproduce my reasoning here, just look back at the last couple of pages. The Luxury Liners I admit to finding more questionable, but as I've mentioned before here, there is the case of the Lusitania in WWI. While there was a large outcry at the time, if you know your history, you understand that the Germans were in fact fairly justified in sinking it and its captain did little to prevent a submarine attack, he was guilty of negligence at least. There is also the fact i have sited that Luxury Liners are armed, and actually have more weapons space than cargo space, which is suspicious.
For the diplomats; and who is to say they are on such a mission? They are also described as "officials", not diplomats. That could mean a lot of things.
Pirate base: I've never seen any implication that they intend to share with the pirates. Furthermore, those locations make sense from a practical view. The pirate system nearest a Confederation base is 5 jumps away from it, and the furthest one from a Rebel base is only 4 jumps away, most are 3 or even 2. Further, Confederate patrols never make it out that far. There is the isolated little Frigate fleet, but that doesn't count. If you look in the EV düde resources, you'll discover that the chances of Confederate ships being at a pirate system are nil. Using them as a transfer point makes sense in that regard.
Originally posted by The Hunter: I tend to side with the Feds, the Rebs background is rather murky.
No more murky than the background of the Confederation, really. The intro text doesn't tell us much about either. Just because the Confederation is the government in power doesn't mean that it isn't murky, or that we know much about it's history. In fact, all that we do know about it's history is rather negative.
Originally posted by David Arthur: For comparison, I'll point out that all of the Nova preambles are the official story from Ambrosia, and yet they represent the views of different groups within the game. The EV intro text is quite obviously told from a Rebel perspective. Also, have you read Scumdog's story in the EV documentation? He never mentions the Rebellion as anything except as one of the reasons the Fringes are "dangerous to travel without some firepower on your side" and never has any complaints about the Confederation - in fact, he was a Confederate fighter pilot during the Great War - and his story is just as official as the intro text.
The intro text has always seemed to me to be a neutral perspective, from a non-aligned narrator with no real stake in what goes on. It's a historical account. By contrast, Scumdog's story is heavily Confederate. Since he was a former fighter pilot, he sees the good side of the Confederation, the side that won the war, and was probably indoctrinated against the Rebellion. That's not a knock on the Confederation, armed forces in general tend to show the good side of their nation and the bad side of all others to recruits, and attract patriotic people besides. I find his story to be a lot more heavily slanted than the intro. Besides, it never gives any indication that he's had any dealings with the Rebellion, so he doesn't have a personal opinion of them.
Originally posted by David Arthur: I don't know if you've noticed, but the Core Worlds amount to pretty much all of Confederation territory, and again, nobody's shown any evidence about whether any oppression took place, exactly who was being oppressed, and who was responsible. Remember, just because somebody was oppressed doesn't implicitly make the central government to blame, especially since the Rebellion doesn't seem to have ever made much of an attempt to solve its grievances through legitimate non-violent means.
The Confederation used to be larger, we know that for a fact. Deneb III was once a Confederate world, which we know from Scumdog's text which you put so much faith in. The Confederacy basically spanned all known worlds to fight off the aliens. The oppression which followed, we can see from the intro, was in fact the central governments fault, exploiting the outer territories for the good of the Core Worlds. Further, how do you know that the Rebels didn't try peaceful means before Rebelling? It doesn't say either way. Failed attempts could be left out, since the intro is rather brief.
Originally posted by David Arthur: Mind you, the Confederate Osprey in Battle for Sol is pretty nice to fly.
You haven't flown one of my Supercruisers yet...
Originally posted by David Arthur: Do you think it's possible for one person to completely control an entire frigate, even if he is that captain? There's no way he could defect and take his ship with him unless his crew supported him. Indeed, the description says that the captain, officers, and crew are defecting, not just the captain
'Fraid I have to go with David on this one, Rak. You can't have a one man mutiny on a ship with a crew of over 200, unless he has one of those combat suits from one of Heinline's novels (Starship Troopers, I think? I'm not up on Heinline's works as much as I should be).
Originally posted by David Arthur: and helping pirates escape a crackdown on illegal arms manufacturing, while more of the Confederate missions involve observing the Rebellion and reacting to their actions.
Where do you get the helping pirates idea? I've never seen any of that, and I've played through the game many times, from both sides. There are also minor Confederate missions involving "striking Rebel Freighter Convoys".
Originally posted by ChristopherH: Correction (to use your phrase) there are indeed Rebel Light Freighters in the game of EV. Dude ID 194 (Dude name - Rebel LF's) Govt ID 129 (Rebellion) Ship type 129 (Light Freighter). I have yet to see a Confed Warship attack any of these, but that is not to say it doesn't happen, I just have not seen it.
Hogwash. Yes, it exists, but that düde is not used in any system for ships that show up regularly. It is used in missions only, and if a Confederate warship is present, they get pounced on.
Sorry if I brought up any points other Rebels have already covered, I was just looking at the replies of our Confederate supporters. Also sorry for the length of this, I've been busy dealing with Battle For Sol II recently, and haven't had time to respond here.
------------------ - Macavenger | e-mail: (url="http://"mailto:e-gamerguy1@home.com")mailto:e-gamerguy1@home.com(/url)e-gamerguy1@home.com
Originally posted by Macavenger: Well, since everyone seems to want to start a new debate on this at YKYGTHOEVW, I thought I'd resurrect this and we could do it at a more appropriate place.
Fine with me. I was only posting to that thread to reply to previous posts that had already been made there.
Originally posted by Macavenger: David has not yet been able to prove to me satisfactorily that the Shuttles etc. are civilian vessels. I don't want to reproduce my reasoning here, just look back at the last couple of pages. The Luxury Liners I admit to finding more questionable...
The luxury liners are quite clearly identified as civilian vessels operated by Centauri Spacelines, and I see little reason why civilian luxury liners would bear Confederate transponders but other civilian vessels would not, so I believe all Confederate civilian vessels bear Confederate transponders. As for your point that the luxury liner is armed, I fail to see what relevance that has. Almost every ship in EV is armed, and the luxury liner is of no use whatsoever in combat. My guess is that its laser turret's main purpose is to make the passengers feel slightly more secure.
Originally posted by Macavenger: For the diplomats; and who is to say they are on such a mission? They are also described as "officials", not diplomats. That could mean a lot of things.
In the mission I found, the victim of the assasination is identified as a senator, not a diplomat or official. As I said earlier in the other topic, I see little reason how freedom is supported by killing off the people's representatives. Also as I said earlier, if the senator in question was of military importance, which I suppose could be seen to justify his/her assasination depending on your value set, don't you think he/she would be carried on a frigate or heavy cruiser rather than an unarmed executive transport?
Originally posted by Macavenger: The intro text has always seemed to me to be a neutral perspective, from a non-aligned narrator with no real stake in what goes on. It's a historical account.
Neutral perspective? It's quite clearly doing everything in its power to make the Confederation look bad and the Rebellion look like an underdog that deserves people's support as much because it needs support as because it deserves it.
Originally posted by Macavenger: The Confederation used to be larger, we know that for a fact. Deneb III was once a Confederate world, which we know from Scumdog's text which you put so much faith in.
And I should take this opportunity to point out that Deneb III, as well as most (all?) of the other independent planets were Confederation-aligned during the Great War, but have now become independent without the use of violence to achieve this goal, so violence is therefore not the only way to leave the Confederation.
Originally posted by Macavenger: The oppression which followed, we can see from the intro, was in fact the central governments fault, exploiting the outer territories for the good of the Core Worlds.
Even if you take the intro text as fact, it's not very clear about who is supposed to have been doing this oppression. "The elite and powerful of the Confederation" is a fairly nebulous phrase; it could mean the central government, but it could just as easily mean regional governors, powerful corporations, influential figures on individual planets, and so on. For that matter, "for the good of the Core Worlds" isn't awfully clear either. Does it mean that the economy of the Core Worlds was improved, that the citizens benefitted in some other way, that the people of the Core Worlds wanted it to happen, that the leaders of the Core Worlds wanted to happen, that actions of people completely unconnected happened to somehow benefit the people in the Core Worlds, or what? Possibilities abound.
Originally posted by Macavenger: Further, how do you know that the Rebels didn't try peaceful means before Rebelling? It doesn't say either way. Failed attempts could be left out, since the intro is rather brief.
There is absolutely nothing in EV to indicate that the Rebellion tried to use peaceful means to achieve their goals, and given that the independent planets (as mentioned above) became independent without the use of violence, I see little reason why the Rebel planets would fail if they had the support of their people.
Originally posted by Macavenger: You haven't flown one of my Supercruisers yet...
No, I haven't, but if you ask me, they sound rather too overpowered to be realistically derived from EV's technology.
Originially posted by Macavenger: There are also minor Confederate missions involving "striking Rebel Freighter Convoys".
I never said that the Confederation never attacks the Rebellion. That would just be stupid, since the Rebellion would probably continue rebelling anyway. All I said was that the Rebellion is the much more aggressive government.
Originally posted by Macavenger: (The Rebel light freighter) is used in missions only, and if a Confederate warship is present, they get pounced on.
...which is because it is only ever used in situations where it is a military freighter. As I said before, this is the scenario that the engine was designed for. You can't say "that's the way the engine works" or "that's the way it has to be configured" for EV the same way you can for Override or a plugin.
------------------
By the way, if you post a reply to this and I don't respond, don't take it as an acknowledgement of any sort of your statements. I probably won't be online again before I depart tomorrow, and I will have Internet access intermittently at best throughout most of August.
------------------ David Arthur (url="http://"http://members.aol.com/darthur1/talon-ev/")Talon Plugin for the original Escape Velocity(/url)
Originally posted by Macavenger: **Well, since everyone seems to want to start a new debate on this at YKYGTHOEVW, I thought I'd resurrect this and we could do it at a more appropriate place. Sound good to everyone?
Sorry if I brought up any points other Rebels have already covered, I was just looking at the replies of our Confederate supporters. Also sorry for the length of this, I've been busy dealing with Battle For Sol II recently, and haven't had time to respond here. **
Hi Macavenger, I wondered if you would be joining in the discussion on the other thread after I read Insano's plea to you on another Webboard. BTW, thanks for bringing this topic back up here, I felt bad that the original topic had been sidetracked by certain of us. As a person unable to register I have refrained from joining in discussions or asking questions because I can't start my own topics.
I will just respond to a couple of your remarks concerning my prior posts on the other thread:
1. The Assasination mission: In the first part of the mission discription, your 'target' is identified as a Confederation official (not diplomat), however, after you accept the mission you receive additional information to the effect that it is a member of the Confederation Senate that you are to eliminate. To me at least this would indicate the personage is a Diplomat.
2. As I have said in prior posts, I can accept that supply ships in war zones are legitimate targets if there is hard evidence that these ships are in fact carrying supplies to further the enemies war effort. From playing EV for the past couple of years however I have gained the impression that in the Rebels case, they indiscriminately attack any and all ships with Confederate Transponder Codes, (including the Luxury Liner which I will get to next.)
3. I have read your prior posts where you bring in the sinking of the Lusitania. Aside from being an example of how in times of war, tragedies often happen, often without intent on the part of the side committing them, I find this a weak arguement for proving the Rebels are morally superior to the Confederation. In the game, (and yes, let us all remember, it is just a game after all) it is not just one Luxury liner that gets attacked and destroyed. It happens repeatedly in more than one system.
4. As far as Luxury Liners being armed, it is a violent galaxy in which the game is set. There is a civil war going on and we have plenty of evidence that piracy is on the upswing. In addition, if I was the CEO of the Corporation running these Liners, after the first one was attacked I would ask the Government to provide armed escorts if possible but this would more than likely not happen as all of the Governments military vessels would be needed in the war with the enemy. As CEO it would then be logical for me to try and hire independent armed escorts and/or put a weapon or weapons on board all of my ships to help protect my paying passengers. In a side note, we are told in the landing description for Capella that hundreds of spaceliners carrying tourists land there every year. Now right next to Capella is Zebetrious, a system often frequented by pirates. Don't you think the owners of the Luxury Liners know this? I find this further justification for the Liners to have weapons. But if their being armed allows/makes you suspicious, then I am also allowed to have my suspiscions which brings me to my next point.
5. The mission to steal munitions from a Confederate convoy and deliver them to a pirate base. Every time I have received this mission, it was always in a system where the travel distance to the pirate base was much further than 5 jumps away. I always wondered why this was so when there were always plenty of planets sympathetic to the Rebels cause much closer. It would seem logical to me if I were in charge of the mission to get the munitions into the hands of the Rebels as soon as possible or at least to a place where they had complete control over what happened to them. We are not told why this happens in the game, but we are free to speculate. Just as you are free to be suspiscious of armed Luxury Liners, I am free to be suspiscious about the motivations for the Rebels having me take the weapons to a planet or station controlled by pirates. Guilt by association is not always right but it is grounds for questioning. If you hang out with pirates, you only have yourself to blame if others begin to think of you as also being a pirate.
6. I have saved this for last because of all your comments it bothered me the most. You referred to my comment about there being Rebel Light Freighters in the game as Hogwash. I am not clear as to why you used this term but I can tell you that the tone of it came across as not very complementary. My comment about the freighters was a direct response to a post by Insano where he was replying to a comment from David Arthur by saying that there were no Rebel Light Freighters in the game. My Post was an attempt by me to clarify that there were in fact Rebel Light Freighters in the game. I did not mean to imply anything more by that comment, just correcting what I felt was a mistake on Insano's part. I also went on to say that while I had not seen any being attacked by Confederate ships, I was also not saying it did not happen. From your rather angry sounding reply, you have. Chastise me for possibly being unobservant, but I don't think my post warranted the term Hogwash from you. I intend while on this board to always keep my remarks civil and I would hope others would do the same.
In closing, if anything in this or prior posts have offended you or others in anyway, I appologise. I have stated my opinion and will now look for other topics where I might get the urge to join in. Good luck with Battle for Sol II and III.
Hi everyone, I'm new to these boards. I first played EV over at a friends house and wow it is awesome. I've got to emulate it though because I don't have a MAC that can run it.
Anyway, enough about me, here's my thoughts on the Fed-Reb issue, in a little more detail then "I tend to side with the Feds, the Rebs background is murky":
First of all, the Confederation did wrong the outer worlds (the Reb Worlds, I haven't made it past shuttlecraft yet so I don't know to much about EV) and the Rebellion sprung up. and began to fight. Good idea.
But let's remember, the oppression of the Outer Worlds wasn't probably something that all of the Feds thought was nessecary...or the right thing. A few corrupt and greedy people in high places, and there's the reason for the oppression. Kill them, not every single Fed/
Then the Rebs get more organized, their fleet gets bigger, and their worlds stabilize. They have what they wanted, their worlds aren't being oppressed anymore, and now they're just battling to destroy the Fed ships and try to bring the down the Confederation. There's No reason to do that, Bad Idea.
At this point (where the player comes into the game) why didn't teh Rebels stop what they started and discuss peace? It would be better for both sides if they united or at least declared a non-agression pact between the two of them. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I like the Feds better, but I respect the Rebs; their problem is that they had a just cause then and they don't now.
Besides, if they stop fighting the Feds then the two goverments can concentrate on these pesky Pirates that seem to keep blowing me up...I've gotta get something other then a shuttlecraft.
Originally posted by ChristopherH: **Hi Macavenger, I wondered if you would be joining in the discussion on the other thread after I read Insano's plea to you on another Webboard. BTW, thanks for bringing this topic back up here, I felt bad that the original topic had been sidetracked by certain of us. As a person unable to register I have refrained from joining in discussions or asking questions because I can't start my own topics.
In closing, if anything in this or prior posts have offended you or others in anyway, I appologise. I have stated my opinion and will now look for other topics where I might get the urge to join in. Good luck with Battle for Sol II and III. **
1. I'll tie David's arguement of being on a bigger ship if they were important. I admit that it only makes sense if they are an important official, but there is no evidence that suggests eeither way. If you want to bring up the Executive transport issue, let's look at this, what does the Confederation use to transport the tractor beam when the Rebels steal it? In case you haven't played as Rebels, it's an Executive Transport. That is only a piece of hardware, but you can't deny that it was important to the Confederation. They sent it that way to avoid attracting attention, perhaps important officials travel the same way. It's impossible to say for sure.
2. I still maintain that those ships with Confed Transponder codes are working directly for the Confederation. My main arguement here, which I get into deep detail with in previous posts, is that if they were civilians from Confederate worlds, there should be freighters from Rebel worlds with Rebel codes, which there are not. Therefore, they are Confederate ships, the ones without codes are the independents, which the Rebellion does not attack.
3 & 4. It doesn't happen in multiple systems. If you've seen a Luxury Liner in Sol, you're using a plugin or hacked data file. Capella is the only system Luxury Lines appear in normally. Incidents involving them are fairly isolated. Liners can go to Capella without leaving Confederation space, which is almost entirely safe, except for ging to the Levo system, which is quite safe and has a militia to defend them. In addition to the Laser Turret, which I see no useful purpose for, given where Luxury Liners travel, you also have to consider that they may carry VIPs, and can be carrying munitions too. Capella would be a more difficult world to supply than most, because there's really only one rroute in, so the Confederation might see it useful to send in some undocumented cargo along with those luxury liners, which could be why they get Confed transponder codes.
5. It makes sense in a practical manner, however. The Confederation navy is not in pirate systems to interdict the transfer to the Rebellion. The rebellion wants to do a transfer as far as possible from Confederate space, to limit the exposure of itself and its supplies to Confederate interference.
6. It appears you are taking the term hogwash in a much harsher way than I intended it, and for this I apologize. The fact is that the Rebel LFs düde is not relevant to that part of the discussion, since it is used solely in missions.
Originally posted by David Arthur: Neutral perspective? It's quite clearly doing everything in its power to make the Confederation look bad and the Rebellion look like an underdog that deserves people's support as much because it needs support as because it deserves it.
Or perhaps, it does this because there is a lot more good to the Rebellion and less to the Confederation than you like to think.
Originally posted by David Arthur: And I should take this opportunity to point out that Deneb III, as well as most (all?) of the other independent planets were Confederation-aligned during the Great War, but have now become independent without the use of violence to achieve this goal, so violence is therefore not the only way to leave the Confederation.
My assumption has been that they splintered away after the beginning of the Rebellion, and returned to the isolationist ways of the time before the Great War. They don't join the Rebellion because they are opposed to centralized governments of all kinds.
Originally posted by David Arthur: No, I haven't, but if you ask me, they sound rather too overpowered to be realistically derived from EV's technology.
Probably, though I feel my creativity in designing them was rather reasonable, war often brings dramatic technological advances.
Originally posted by David Arthur: All I said was that the Rebellion is the much more aggressive government.
I fail to see what's wrong with this.
Originally posted by Macavenger: **I fail to see what's wrong with this. **
Last response unless you and David say something else I feel I absolutely have to respond to.
1. Luxury Liners in Sol: Nope, no plug in, no hacked data file. I was using version 1.0.5 downloaded from my registered copy of the CD. It was just last night when I saw this happen. I had just started the game and was in my shuttlecraft and I had just hypered into the Sol system when a Rebel Fleet blasted in and started shooting up all the ships. There was a Luxury Liner just off of Luna which got decimated by Rebel Ships.
I have played both sides and like David, at first I was a staunch Rebel supporter. I have had some of my friends tell me that as one gets older, i.e. more experienced, there is often a tendency to become more conservative in ones outloook, perhaps this is what is happening here with me? Nah, that can't be it.
Oh yeah, about the Confeds using the Executive Shuttle for transport, I don't have a problem with the Rebels attacking it. They at least had intelligence (faulty as it turns out) that the Confeds were using it to transport a new weapons system.
Bye for now, I'll keep checking back now and then to see if anything additional catches my attention.
Originally posted by Macavenger: **2. I still maintain that those ships with Confed Transponder codes are working directly for the Confederation. My main arguement here, which I get into deep detail with in previous posts, is that if they were civilians from Confederate worlds, there should be freighters from Rebel worlds with Rebel codes, which there are not. Therefore, they are Confederate ships, the ones without codes are the independents, which the Rebellion does not attack. **
All Rebellion frieghter traffic goes through its warships. It's destroyer is "still a freighter at heart." Anyway, it is too dangerous for the rebels to transport cargo in unarmed ships, the feds would destroy them.
Civilian ships? I will revert to David's argument that the "rebellion" is not a government, but a militayr resistance. Each world has an independant governing force, but are controlled by the rebellion.
------------------ Prepare to succumb to superior intelligence
Originally posted by General Rak: **All Rebellion frieghter traffic goes through its warships. It's destroyer is "still a freighter at heart." Anyway, it is too dangerous for the rebels to transport cargo in unarmed ships, the feds would destroy them.
Civilian ships? I will revert to David's argument that the "rebellion" is not a government, but a militayr resistance. Each world has an independant governing force, but are controlled by the rebellion. **
How the Rebel Destroyer can still be considered a freighter with 30 tons of cargo I can't imagine. While their cargo does seem to move on their warships, you'll never see any on their ships if you board them, except for special fleets. But I don't see how this is relevant. The fact is that if there were Rebel Freighters, the Confeds would attack them, and the fact that the Confeds are stupid enough to run their military shipments on vulnerable Freighters doesn't make the rebellion evil for destroying them.
The "rebellion" is a military resistance, true. But the "Rebellion" is very much a government like the Confederation, and has it's own leadership and capital, namely Palshife. I've benn over this point many times, and it holds up.
Anyway, aren't you normally a rebel person?
What makes you think they didn't try? What makes you think the confeds didn't just kill the representatives? If you were the confeds would you just forgive the people that destroyed a bunch of your ships?
I do think the Rebel ships are better, but I think the Rebelliion is wrong. The Confederacy is the rightful government, and is only responding to violence from the Rebellion. As pointed out earlier, there are Independant systems that seceeded peacefully. The Rebellion is merely pushing its beliefs on others.
I am voting pro Confed.
------------------ "The heathens are upon us. Arm yourselves and go with God." Paul Benden, Commander of the Purple Sector Fleet, prior to the Battle of Cygni.
Originally posted by Insano: What makes you think they didn't try? What makes you think the confeds didn't just kill the representatives? If you were the confeds would you just forgive the people that destroyed a bunch of your ships?
What makes you think they didn't try? What makes you think the REBELS didn't just kill the representatives? If you were the REBELS would you just forgive the people that destroyed a bunch of your ships? this arguement can go both ways
Tycho Maudd
------------------ I say what occurs to me to say when I think I hear people say things, more I cannot say.
Right. So now that the Rebs have their own planets and the Feds still have a very intact empire, why not to try to work things out?
Wait, I can answer my own question: Human (or AI) Nature. Neither side wants to stop the bloodshed because they both feel they must annhilate each other. That's actually very realistic. Besides, the Civil War going on makes the game more fun.
But still, Long Live the Confederation!
But how do we know that things can be worked out? If I'm the Confederation, and this Rebellion comes up and starts trying to overthrow me, and they decide they want to stop, I'm not going to let them off without rubbing their faces in the dirt first (say, there's my human nature showing through). There could be reparations costs, etc., etc., which the Rebellion doesn't want to get into, so the only possibility is for them to win the war to avoid being reduced to near slaves by the Confederacy again. It's a possibility you peace seekers must consider.
Originally posted by Macavenger: **But how do we know that things can be worked out? If I'm the Confederation, and this Rebellion comes up and starts trying to overthrow me, and they decide they want to stop, I'm not going to let them off without rubbing their faces in the dirt first (say, there's my human nature showing through). There could be reparations costs, etc., etc., which the Rebellion doesn't want to get into, so the only possibility is for them to win the war to avoid being reduced to near slaves by the Confederacy again. It's a possibility you peace seekers must consider. **
Hello again everyone, nothing to add to the conversation today, but since I have made a few prior posts, I thought I would register, since we can once more. I hope all of you will be patient with me as another Newbie attempts to work his way through the process of becoming a valuable contributor to your community.
------------------ CRH
Originally posted by Macavenger: How the Rebel Destroyer can still be considered a freighter with 30 tons of cargo I can't imagine.
Remember, they mass produce those things.
Originally posted by Macavenger: While their cargo does seem to move on their warships, you'll never see any on their ships if you board them, except for special fleets.
Because those ships contain military cargo, which isn't bought or sold in the game.
Originally posted by Macavenger: The fact is that if there were Rebel Freighters, the Confeds would attack them, and the fact that the Confeds are stupid enough to run their military shipments on vulnerable Freighters doesn't make the rebellion evil for destroying them.
But guess what... there aren't any rebel freighters
The confeds don't run their military shipments on vulnerable freighters, only civvies do. The confeds use escorted convoys
Originally posted by Macavenger: The "rebellion" is a military resistance, true. But the "Rebellion" is very much a government like the Confederation, and has it's own leadership and capital, namely Palshife. I've benn over this point many times, and it holds up.
It seems we're deadlocked. Point declared moot.
Originally posted by Macavenger: Anyway, aren't you normally a rebel person?:p
I am, but the feds need some defense
The rebel cause is better, and so are their ships.
Originally posted by ChristopherH: Hello again everyone, nothing to add to the conversation today, but since I have made a few prior posts, I thought I would register, since we can once more. I hope all of you will be patient with me as another Newbie attempts to work his way through the process of becoming a valuable contributor to your community.
Welcome! You seem quite punctual and articulate. I hold great respect for you, and so does the entire board. Your few post are of higher quality than some people here produce over their lifetime.
(This message has been edited by General Rak (edited 08-06-2001).)
Originally posted by General Rak: Remember, they mass produce those things.
Relevance? Who says you can't mass produce a warship?
Originally posted by General Rak: Because those ships contain military cargo, which isn't bought or sold in the game.
So equipment and Food aren't military cargo? I beg to differ. i admit that luxury goods probably aren't, but you never know what those dirt-side generals might be able to requisition...
Originally posted by General Rak: The confeds don't run their military shipments on vulnerable freighters, only civvies do. The confeds use escorted convoys
Really? Seems I see unescorted Confed shuttles running around all the time.
Originally posted by General Rak: It seems we're deadlocked. Point declared moot.
This point cannot be moot, because it is part of the foundation of my argument that the ships with Confed transponders are Confederate ships, not civilians. So if we're deadlocked, then I use it to fuel the above section. You're going to have to shoot this down if you want to destroy my assertion that Confed freighters are in fact Confeds.
Originally posted by General Rak: I am, but the feds need some defense
Traitor
Originally posted by Macavenger: Relevance? Who says you can't mass produce a warship?
You said 30 tonnes is very little. However, when mass produced, it amounts to a lot. Anyway, armour takes up a lot of the cargo space. They have to defend against confed aggression.
Originally posted by Macavenger: So equipment and Food aren't military cargo? I beg to differ. i admit that luxury goods probably aren't, but you never know what those dirt-side generals might be able to requisition...
They are supplied by local governments.
Originally posted by Macavenger: Really? Seems I see unescorted Confed shuttles running around all the time.
They are civilian craft registered under the confed government.
Originally posted by Macavenger: This point cannot be moot, because it is part of the foundation of my argument that the ships with Confed transponders are Confederate ships, not civilians. So if we're deadlocked, then I use it to fuel the above section. You're going to have to shoot this down if you want to destroy my assertion that Confed freighters are in fact Confeds.
I say that rebel planets are controlled by the rebels, but governed by independants. You say they are Rebel governed.
What about this- the citizens of the rebellion register independantly so the evil confederation can't get them. But the confederarion forces its citizens to use its codes. That would explain it.
That just goes to show that the confeds don't care about their civilians and want them to get killed.
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(quote)Originally posted by General Rak: What about this- the citizens of the rebellion register independantly so the evil confederation can't get them.
Insano has a good point in the previous post, and additionally, this makes little sense. It's somewhat akin to Texas citizens being required to get a Texas driver's license, while Citizens in Quebec would be allowed to get a British Columbian license. Makes no sense.
(Note, if Canada uses generic, nation-wide licenses, then I apologize for the bad analogy, but I assume it works like it does here in the U.S.)