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Originally posted by David Arthur: **The war probably started because the people on the fringes blamed the Core Worlds for the poor conditions that resulted from the Great War, especially since the planets farther from the fringes were also farther from the action, and therefore less damaged. As for the intro text, are you saying that the majority of people will believe anything that scrolls across their screen, even if it contradicts things they can easily see for themselves? **
Not true. The aliens appear to have pretty much started at Galactic East(Serpens Nebula) and swept straight across to the west. Additionally, if you read the documentation included with the game carefully, you'll see a quote from Scumdog, which begins:
Originally written in EV Documentation by Captain Scumdog: After punching out of my Manta in the Battle of Sirius...
The Confederate worlds were not unaffected by the war.
Originally posted by David Arthur: Also, the people fighting it didn't commit nearly as many morally questionable actions as EV's rebellion.
I disagree here too. The only questionable tactic the Rebels in EV use that comes to mind is assassination missions, and the Rebels in Star Wars did that. I still don't find attacking freighters with Confed transponders questionable. Even if they are civilians(I disagree), They are still taking around goods potentially dangerous to the rebellion. See my earlier analogies here.
Originally posted by me: When the US was sending supplies out to Britain, The German U-boats tried to sink them all. Those freighters were working for our government, bringing supplies of who knows what out towards Britain. I suggest that what the Rebels are doing, destroying Confed freighters out in independent systems, is no different from German U-Boats sinking US freighters in the middle of the Atlantic. The Confederation could have strike bases on those worlds, much as the US and Japan had outposts on islands all over the Pacific. Those Confed freighters could be brining out war supplies. If you and I are having a feud and I drive toward your house with a big truck full of something, are you just going to wait and see what's in the truck when it gets to your house? Most likely, you're going to do something about it. In the Rebels case, since they have weapons ready, they're going to blast the freighters in self defense. A war cannot be won only with military ships, supply freighters are just as important.
------------------ So go on the internet game sites and bash all the PC users!
Originally posted by Macavenger: The aliens appear to have pretty much started at Galactic East(Serpens Nebula) and swept straight across to the west.
My interpretation is that the term "the fringes" refers to the entire outer areas of the galaxy, north, south, east, and west, not just west.
Originally posted by Macavenger: The Confederate worlds were not unaffected by the war.
I didn't say they were. I just said that they were less affected.
Originally posted by Macavenger: I still don't find attacking freighters with Confed transponders questionable. Even if they are civilians(I disagree), They are still taking around goods potentially dangerous to the rebellion. See my earlier analogies here.
So you're saying it's a reasonable action and furthers the cause of "freedom" to go into the heart your enemies' territory and start killing their civilians? The Rebels don't just attack freighters at the front lines. I've seen fleets of cruisers blowing up shuttlecraft in the Sol system.
------------------ David Arthur Talon Plugin for Classic EV: (url="http://"http://members.aol.com/darthur1/talon-ev/")http://members.aol.c...thur1/talon-ev/(/url)
Unfortunately, we seem to be at another impasse here, since none of our best arguments can convince each other of anything, I think we may have to just let this lie for a while. Maybe someone else will take up the fight.
It's interesting that nobody has ever taken up the question of what form of government that they Confeds and Rebels have. As basically everybody knows, the Rebel planets broke away from the Confederation for two main reasons: (1) No representation in the Senate and (2) Being exploited by the elite for the benefit for the Core Worlds. I believe the two reasons are intwined- due to the non-Core World's lack of representation in the Senate, they were able to be exploited without government intervention. Now with the fringe worlds in the Rebellion, it can be reasonablly assumed that all the worlds currently in the Confederation are represented in the Senate.
Another thing that, surprisingly, nobody has brought up is the issue of Regulus II. Now, for some strange reason (probably an oversight) one cannot get to Regulus II in the regular game, its atmosphere being "too hostile." However, if you look in ResEdit and/or EV/O Developer's Map (aside: you can use EVO Dev Map for EV, it just asks where the EV Data is), you can see that Regulus II is a Confederation penal colony, where the Confederation sent its most prominent political dissenters soon after the Great War. At first glance, it seems perfect ammunition for Rebellion apologists: here, they say, is clear, explicit evidence that the Confederation keeps political prisoners and punishes dissidents. However, it should be noted that the prisoners were sent there at the end of the Great War. Basically, it means that the Confederation outlwaed dissent as far as we know during the period between tyhe defeat of the Aliens and the emergence of the Rebellion. the planet description does not say that they still send political prisoners there, only that they did so ante natus Rebellii. ("before the birth of the Rebellion in Latin (I think)) One could say that the Confederation no longer outlaws dissent (for various reasons.)
As for my personal inclination, I am for the Confederation ... of Democratic Core Worlds. {Go play New Horizons )
God bless,
UE Patriot
------------------ "Turn me over, I'm done on this side."- St. Lawerence at his martyrdom "The glory of God is man fully alive"- St. Iraeneus Voinian lovers are ignorant of the UE marines taking over Borb Station. (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/cgi-bin/vftp/show.pl?product=evo&category;=plugins&display;=date&file;=ReignOfTheUE.Bin")Reign of the UE(/url): Get it today!
Originally posted by UE Patriot: Now, for some strange reason (probably an oversight) one cannot get to Regulus II in the regular game, its atmosphere being "too hostile." However, if you look in ResEdit and/or EV/O Developer's Map (aside: you can use EVO Dev Map for EV, it just asks where the EV Data is), you can see that Regulus II is a Confederation penal colony, where the Confederation sent its most prominent political dissenters soon after the Great War.
I would put it the other way around: when Regulus II was made "too hostile," Matt Burch didn't bother deleting a description from an earlier version of the game.
If you want a political structure, you can read my article about (url="http://"http://members.aol.com/darthur1/confed.html")the Confederate Political System(/url) as I've been using it in the Battle for Sol thread.
The EV/O Chronicles story I'm doing— Zero Moment —explores the structure of the Confederation Navy to some small extent. That installment of the story, Part Five, is waiting now in the story queue. I'd imagined a three-part division between Command (strategy and Navy brass, basically), Naval Ops (tactics—the folks who do the work of war, you could say), and ConfedCom Beta (home to the Navy's 'black bag' operations). The relationship between the three divisions is uneasy, as you might imagine.
As to government instead: I'd envisioned a relatively weak president, with true political power residing in the Senate. That body would be heavily influenced by the Navy and by corporate entities with deep pockets and vested economic interests.
------------------ PlanetPhil dance like it hurts love like you need money work when people are watching
Originally posted by UE Patriot: **It's interesting that nobody has ever taken up the question of what form of government that they Confeds and Rebels have. As basically everybody knows, the Rebel planets broke away from the Confederation for two main reasons: (1) No representation in the Senate and (2) Being exploited by the elite for the benefit for the Core Worlds. I believe the two reasons are intwined- due to the non-Core World's lack of representation in the Senate, they were able to be exploited without government intervention. Now with the fringe worlds in the Rebellion, it can be reasonablly assumed that all the worlds currently in the Confederation are represented in the Senate. <snip> As for my personal inclination, I am for the Confederation ... of Democratic Core Worlds. **
Beyond mention of the existance of a Confed Senate, a Rebel High Command, and their Navies (which have admirals and officers), there is no information on government structure in EV. Gov't structure is therefore a matter for fantasy. For example, Senators might serve for life. Maybe the senate is powerless and the Confed Navy runs things. Perhaps the rebel high command is an oligarchy.
------------------
Ok, im gonna throw in some poorly thought out ideas to help any Confed supporters. (that are left :frown:)
In the docs and in the intro text, it says that the confeds used their new warships to fight off the aliens during the great war. This would have required massive amounts of resources, and since the fringe worlds were most likely lightly "worked", and they were the victims of most alien attacks, most of these resources would have come from the core worlds. After the war, the Confeds were most likely pressed for resouces.However, the civilians on the fringe worlds might have refused to work, due to the conditions of their worlds after the alien attacks. The confeds needed them to get the job done, and forcing them might have been the only way. Naturally, the workers would rebel.(form rebellion, attack confeds,etc.) The confeds would obviously attack back, not only to defend their ships but to reclaim the planets they saved from a certain defeat by the aliens.
(no, that doesnt give the confeds an excuse, i know)
Btw, i actually like the blue dots on confed ships
------------------ If its not forced, ill do it!
Originally posted by ErsadtSF: **Ok, im gonna throw in some poorly thought out ideas to help any Confed supporters. (that are left:frown: )
**
You're right, that's no excuse. Why not give them some representation in the Senate, and either send people out to work them or pay the colonists to. Also, the Confeds are clearly not out of resources, they've got a fully functional mine on New Providence. If you can't work up a better argument than that, why post it? You even admit it's flawed. Also, I think the Blue spots are hideous. But that's purely a matter of opinion.
I imagine the confeds would have problems sustaining ALL of their ships off of New Providence and Enyo Fuel Refinery.The other planets supply resources, true, but most likely not enough to support the confeds navy. In any case, what would you have done differently to get assistance to ALL fringe worlds attacked by the aliens? In addition, the confeds,while power-hungry, would probably not have forced so many into labor without provocation, and what better provocation than a bunch of "rebels" attacking confed installations on fringe colonies? These rebels could say the confeds were purposely denying them supplies; leaving them for dead after the aliens ravaged their worlds. The confeds would have no choice but to force them to work, and who would let rebels have representatives in the senate? What would you have done?
Btw, how do u quote other users?
Originally posted by ErsadtSF: **
Above the post you are wanting to quote from, hit the "reply" button. That way, when you make a post, your message while show the post you are replying to.
President of the Corsair Development Team (url="http://"http://artworks.tmgmedia.net")Corsair Homepage(/url) | (url="http://"http://pub57.ezboard.com/bcorsairdevelopers")Corsair Web Board(/url) | (url="http://"http://pub101.ezboard.com/bstarbasedelta")Starbase Delta(/url)
Originally posted by Macavenger: **I seem to recall from history class that US soldiers shot many surrendering Germans on Omaha beach, because taking prisoners then would have been most inconvenient.
Whoever told you that has no idea what it was like. The reason many people shoot (but no, there wasn't to many instances of people shooting surrendering forces) people surrendering is because they watched them shoot and murder all their buddies and friends next to them. Imagion all the hatred someone would have after they watched the enemy slaughter all their buddies around them. They should not have, but the feeling of vengence was overwhelming at times. And it happened on all sides.
------------------ --mikeeJ: Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy / Linux Zealot Suggestions, complaints, comments? Feel free to email me: zergess@yahoo.com "The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws." - Tacitus
I like the aliens the best. Cydonia is cool. Most often I just work for whoever will pay me. Being a mercenary is great! In one pilot file I own ever Confed system except Sol and Ruby
Originally posted by Soviet mikee: **Whoever told you that has no idea what it was like. The reason many people shoot (but no, there wasn't to many instances of people shooting surrendering forces) people surrendering is because they watched them shoot and murder all their buddies and friends next to them. Imagion all the hatred someone would have after they watched the enemy slaughter all their buddies around them. They should not have, but the feeling of vengence was overwhelming at times. And it happened on all sides. **
True, that's probably all correct, but can you imagine having to take prisoners at a time like that? I like to believe some of it on that particular assault may have been due to that.
Also, it was not always done because of seeing people killing your buddies. A German SS unit massacred 140 men from an anti-aircraft battery who surrendered to them. Not an immediate heavy combat situation either. That one was completely unjustified.
And I know there weren't that many, but they were there.
Originally posted by Captain Skyblade: **Above the post you are wanting to quote from, hit the "reply" button. That way, when you make a post, your message while show the post you are replying to.:)
Or, you can manually add quote tags, like this: <quote> </quote> With brackets instead of greater than/less than symbols. You can then copy and paste your quote in there.
Originally posted by ErsadtSF: **I imagine the confeds would have problems sustaining ALL of their ships off of New Providence and Enyo Fuel Refinery.The other planets supply resources, true, but most likely not enough to support the confeds navy. In any case, what would you have done differently to get assistance to ALL fringe worlds attacked by the aliens? In addition, the confeds,while power-hungry, would probably not have forced so many into labor without provocation, and what better provocation than a bunch of "rebels" attacking confed installations on fringe colonies? These rebels could say the confeds were purposely denying them supplies; leaving them for dead after the aliens ravaged their worlds. The confeds would have no choice but to force them to work, and who would let rebels have representatives in the senate? What would you have done?
Btw, how do u quote other users? **
Ooh, I don't get arguments like this I can utterly destroy with one stroke very often.
The rebellion was formed in response to Confederat predations, not the other way around.
Try again.
Whoa.
The rebellion im talking about isnt the "real" rebellion in EV. Its a bunch of people scattered over the fringe worlds, attacking confeds because they think its the confeds fault that their worlds were destroyed by aliens and they were not receiving supplies. (remember, this is right after the great war).
......and how do u quote people? I couldnt find it in the faq...
Originally posted by ErsadtSF: **Whoa.:)
The rebellion im talking about isnt the "real" rebellion in EV. Its a bunch of people scattered over the fringe worlds, attacking confeds because they think its the confeds fault that their worlds were destroyed by aliens and they were not receiving supplies. (remember, this is right after the great war).**
And what makes you think there was a rebellion like this? From all the EV documentation I've seen, these worlds were all part of the Confederacy after the Great War. I think, if I lived on a devastated planet like that, I'd be asking the Confeds for help rebuilding, not going around killing them for no reason. You can't just assume that there were nameless rebels running around like that, this is a factual(at least, as factual as fiction can get) discussion. On the other hand, there probably wouldn't be many survivors around to be mad on a world the aliens hit early in the war. :frown:
Originally posted by ErsadtSF: **......and how do u quote people? I couldnt find it in the faq... **
/me sighs Skyblade and I explained this, but I'll try again:
From UBB Code Explained: To reference something specific that someone has posted, just cut and paste the applicable verbiage and enclose it as shown below (UBB Code is in bold ).
**< QUOTE>**Ask not what your country can do for you.... ask what you can do for your country. < /QUOTE>
In the example above, the UBB Code automatically blockquotes the text you reference.
NOTE Replace greater/less than symbols ( < and > ) above with brackets ( ( and ) ). You can also click the Edit button on this message to see how I've done it. You can't edit my message, but it will show you the UBB Code as I actually typed it in.
(This message has been edited by Macavenger (edited 06-08-2001).)
Well, in that case...
Originally posted by Macavenger: And what makes you think there was a rebellion like this? From all the EV documentation I've seen, these worlds were all part of the Confederacy after the Great War. I think, if I lived on a devastated planet like that, I'd be asking the Confeds for help rebuilding, not going around killing them for no reason. You can't just assume that there were nameless rebels running around like that, this is a factual(at least, as factual as fiction can get) discussion. On the other hand, there probably wouldn't be many survivors around to be mad on a world the aliens hit early in the war.
Yes, the fringe worlds are part of the confederacy, im saying a group of rebels (not the actual rebellion), scattered over the fringe worlds, might have been attacking the confeds (on the ground), because they thought it was the confeds fault that their worlds were destroyed by aliens and they were NOT receiving aid. (remember, the confeds must have used massive amount of resources to create their new ships and defeat the aliens).
Im not saying, "this is exactly what happened",(note the "might"s and "could have"s) im trying to show that there are several ways the confeds might have had more than enough reason/provocation. Since we dont know EXACTLY what happened, we cant draw a definite conclusion. argument open for stomping
Originally posted by David Arthur: **Are you actually bringing out the fact that the rebels attack civilian ships as a point in their favour? The shuttles, light freighters, etc. that fly around with Confederate transponders are not (usually) military supply ships. They're civilian vessels owned by people or corporations on Confederate planets, and there's no benefit to the Rebel cause or anyone's freedom in destroying them. Attacking civilians is generally considered to be a violation of the rules of civilised war, if that's not a contradiction in terms. I'd say this Rebel behaviour is probably the best argument against them! **
I agree somewhat, but have you done the Confed mission after the transporting industrial toxins where you find out that they are using the toxins for biologial warfare? If you support the confeds and blame rebs for killing civilians, it may be true, but it's also hypocritical.