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Funny, with my Confed pilot, I also have had the urge to blow away the Confeds with my particle beam too. Although, I wouldn't have very much luck, because a corvette even with a particle beam usually couldn't blow away a Confed Cruiser.
As for the Rebel cause, do you think in Star Wars the Rebels shouldn't have fought the Imperials?
Ships: the Confed capital ships and the Gunboats are slow, while the Patrol Ship has no shields and armour. The Rebel ships, however, are fast, and although they have worse shields, they are much faster, and the Mantas launch from the Rebel Cruiser a lot faster than the Patrol Ships from the Confed Cruiser. The Confeds waste money on Neutron Blasters, when it really does no good on the Cruiser because the Cruiser can't turn.
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Originally posted by Lord Gwydion: As for the Rebel cause, do you think in Star Wars the Rebels shouldn't have fought the Imperials?
I never said that rebellions are inherently wrong. I just said that this particular rebellion is serving no purpose other than to cost a large number of lives and allow the pirates to survive.
Originally posted by Captain Carnotaur: (SARCASM)Oh, yeah. The Rebels are really pirates that just want to destroy the galaxy and the Confeds are the little saints who want to bring freedom to the galaxy...(/SARCASM) ...BY ENSLAVING EVERYONE AND HAVING MISGUIDED CONFED SUPPORTERS LIKE YOU WHO CAN'T SEE THROUGH THE FACT THAT SLAVERY IS DEAD WRONG!!! Sheesh!
Did I ever say the Rebels were pirates? No! I have no doubt that they believe in their cause completely. They just aren't achieving anything by keeping the galaxy at war. As for the slavery, it has never been clearly documented, and there's no reason to believe that something that took place such a long time ago in isolated locations on the Fringes have anything to do with the current Confederate central government. My guess would be that any injustices that occurred were the fault of corrupt governors trying to do as well for themselves as possible before Earth was able to rebuild its communications, recover from its war with the aliens, and get a firm grip on its outer colonies again.
------------------ David Arthur Long live the Confederation!
(This message has been edited by David Arthur (edited 05-20-2001).)
lol! that's funny! it's true too!
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Originally posted by David Arthur: Did I ever say the Rebels were pirates? No! I have no doubt that they believe in their cause completely.
That's called sarcasm.
Originally posted by David Arthur: **They just aren't achieving anything by keeping the galaxy at war. As for the slavery, it has never been clearly documented, and there's no reason to believe that something that took place such a long time ago in isolated locations on the Fringes have anything to do with the current Confederate central government. My guess would be that any injustices that occurred were the fault of corrupt governors trying to do as well for themselves as possible before Earth was able to rebuild its communications, recover from its war with the aliens, and get a firm grip on its outer colonies again. **
That's called imperialism and a horrible moral standard. Unfortunately, you just don't like the Rebels and thus have blinded yourself to the fact that forced labor/slavery/whatever the heck you want to call it is wrong! Geez.
------------------ If at first you don't succeed...Hit it harder! - Me -------------- Millennium. Its coming, prepare for it. Coming to the (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiaSW.com/games/ev/chronicles.html")EV Chronicles(/url).
Originally posted by Captain Carnotaur: ...forced labor/slavery/whatever the heck you want to call it is wrong!
You must remember, however, that a government is quite different than a person. Assuming that the injustices the Rebels complain about did happen, who was responsible? Let's try a comparison. Many people feel that the United States was justified in breaking off from the British Empire back in the 18th century, and that the British were in the wrong. Does that mean that we should all go and try to assasinate Tony Blair? Attacking a government because at some point in time some of its representatives have commited wrongful actions is not necessarily a good idea.
Originally posted by Captain Carnotaur: Unfortunately, you just don't like the Rebels...
Here, you are making assumptions. The first several times I played through the game, I fell for the propaganda in the intro text, joined the Rebels, and destroyed any Confederate ship I saw. But as I got to know the Rebels better, I saw what they were actually doing: destroying civilian ships and keeping the galaxy in disorder.
Originally posted by Captaion Carnotaur: That's called imperialism and a horrible moral standard.
You're saying it's imperialism for a government to try to retain control of its territory. I'm not sure if you noticed, but at the beginning of the Great War, those worlds joined to form the Confedeation voluntarily.
------------------ David Arthur Talon Plugin for Classic EV: (url="http://"http://members.aol.com/darthur1/talon-ev/")http://members.aol.c...thur1/talon-ev/(/url)
(This message has been edited by David Arthur (edited 05-21-2001).)
The moral issue, is mostly a moot point, hytjang proved in the archived topic that, depending on your perception of the issue, the 'Feds can be seen as moral equals, though most (myself included) don't look at it from that angle. He was not able to prove, nor do I think he really believed, that they were better morally, just equal, from a certain view.
As for the other stuff, Rebels all the way:
Fighters: with 1.0.5, Manta, with 2 missiles, wins. It's manuverability gives it an edge over both Confed fighters, even the gunboat with it's heavier weapons, in one on one fighter duels. They usually destroy each other, but if one wins, it'll be the rebel.
Destroyer v. Frigate: Easy point for the Destroyer. Faster and moe manuverrable, and comes with more torps. It's turning allows it to fire more often and dodge some shots, which often more than makes up for the lower shield. Plus, it's more expandable for half the cost.
Cruisers: Even with the upgraded (over 1.0.4 and earlier) Mantas, the Confed still win most, though its a lot closer. Still, the reb is more useful to most humans because of the better manuvering. The fed one turns like molasses chilled with liquid nitrogen.
Also, the rebel missions are better. They send 2 cruisers not 1, and the confed has always shot at me, not th cruiser, unless i use a hack. Also, reb outfits are better. I don't think the P beam is as bad as most rebels, or the T beam as good, but the tractor is a huge bonus against the alien.
Well, that's my 2 cents, Maybe more later...
------------------
Originally posted by Macavenger: **Cruisers: Even with the upgraded (over 1.0.4 and earlier) Mantas, the Confed still win most, though its a lot closer. Still, the reb is more useful to most humans because of the better manuvering. The fed one turns like molasses chilled with liquid nitrogen. **
Exactly, and not to mention that in a human piloted Rebel Cruiser you can easily whoop the Confed Cruiser. In fact, all the Rebels would have to do is expand their fighter bay a bit to hold another 4 mantas and the Confeds would be toast. Of course, you could always add just another 100 units of shields and the Rebel Cruiser would also win. It's only by a very slim margine that the Confed Cruiser wins. If it didn't have as much shields, it would easily loose.
Originally posted by Macavenger: **
**
Actually, though everything you've said is true, this paragraph isn't always the case. I don't know how on earth it's happened so much lately, but when I was playing EV yesterday, I saw two engagements that day between a Rebel and Confederation Cruiser without escorts to provide help. The first engagement, all the Confederation Patrol Ships were destroyed before the Mantas were. Thus, at the end of the battle, the Rebel Cruiser was disabled, but a few last shots from the mantas and Rebel Cruiser finished off the Confederation giant. The second engagement I witnessed the same day was very interesting. Both the cruisers seemed to lose their fighters immediately after launching them, and the two cruisers dulled it out. I then realized what a huge lead the Rebel Cruiser held in terms of agility, and watched the ship fire tons of rockets before the Confed could even turn around. At the end of the battle, the Confederation Cruiser was destroyed, and the Rebel Cruiser at "shields down." Those were two lucky battles...
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Even though the Confed Cruiser is considerably less manuverable than the Rebel one, the Confed is the better ship. It has more shields, more armor, and more space for weapons. Also, with and RCS upgrade, turning in the 'Fed Cruiser isn't a problem. Another thing, the particle beam is far better than the tractor beam and cloaking device combined (even if it does drain your fuel, it leaves your shields intact, unlike the cloaking device).
'Feds forever!
Originally posted by Bth3417: Even though the Confed Cruiser is considerably less manuverable than the Rebel one, the Confed is the better ship.
I agree. While the Confederate cruiser's low speed and maneuverability can make it frustrating to fly at times, it is very effective in battle if you're patient enough.
Originally posted by Captain Carnotaur: Exactly, and not to mention that in a human piloted Rebel Cruiser you can easily whoop the Confed Cruiser.
Actually, that's not really fair, because you can say the same about a Confed Cruiser. Not meaning to argue against the rebels here, just trying to be fair. My main point is that most humans would prefer the Rebel Cruiser because it's greater maneuvering keeps it alive more in a human's hands than the Confed.
Originally posted by Captain Skyblade: Actually, though everything you've said is true, this paragraph isn't always the case. I don't know how on earth it's happened so much lately, but when I was playing EV yesterday, I saw two engagements that day between a Rebel and Confederation Cruiser without escorts to provide help.
You'll notice I said the confed wins most.
Originally posted by Bth3417: Another thing, the particle beam is far better than the tractor beam and cloaking device combined (even if it does drain your fuel, it leaves your shields intact, unlike the cloaking device).
I disagree. The Particle Beam does have it's uses, but the tractor can do a lot of good stuff. First it makes the alien mission much easier. Also, Tractor beams and the cloaking device are great for taking planets. The tractor can lock down fighters for your turrets to blast, and also, the defenders won't attack your escorts. You can cloak and run for the edge of the system, and the defenders sit still for your escorts to blast. Shiels regenerate while you're cloaked, and by the time you have to decloak you'll be a long way off with shields most of the way back, and your escorts can kill a lot of ships.
Originally posted by David Arthur: I agree. While the Confederate cruiser's low speed and maneuverability can make it frustrating to fly at times, it is very effective in battle if you're patient enough.
I'm not that patient. Also, it's really hard for the bathtub to run away if it gets critically damaged.
You know, even if you were able to play a human Rebel Cruiser against a human Confederation Cruiser, and the captains were experienced, I could almost promise you the Rebel would win. With it's speed, the Rebel Cruiser could avoid most of the torpedoes, while the Confederation Junk-o-saurus became a sitting duck...
Originally posted by Captain Skyblade: You know, even if you were able to play a human Rebel Cruiser against a human Confederation Cruiser, and the captains were experienced, I could almost promise you the Rebel would win. With it's speed, the Rebel Cruiser could avoid most of the torpedoes, while the Confederation Junk-o-saurus became a sitting duck...
If this happened, it would be primarily because humans tend to learn to fly fast ships better than strong ships. If both players had plenty of experience with those ships , it would probably be a toss-up.
Originally posted by Bth3417: **Even though the Confed Cruiser is considerably less manuverable than the Rebel one, the Confed is the better ship. It has more shields, more armor, and more space for weapons. Also, with and RCS upgrade, turning in the 'Fed Cruiser isn't a problem. Another thing, the particle beam is far better than the tractor beam and cloaking device combined (even if it does drain your fuel, it leaves your shields intact, unlike the cloaking device).
'Feds forever! **
Eh...
/looks at Captain Skyblades post
You SURE the Confed Junk-o-saurus is better? I mean, it's slow, the neutron blasters are a waste, and the Rebel Cruiser can actually make use of all its weapons because it has better turning. Heck with the shields.
Well, I did some research on the power for weapons and such, and I came up with the following total powers:
NOTE: I did NOT include the damage for the proton turrets, the proton cannons, and the swivel laser cannons. I did, however, figure out how much damage neutron blasters would cause in the same amount of time that it takes a heavy rocket to reload.
Rebel Cruiser: Missiles: Armor Damage: 2000 Shield Damage: 1000 Mantas: Laser Guns: Reload: 7.5 Missiles: A: 200 S: 100 Heavy Rockets: Armor Damage: 1800 Shield Damage: 880 Proton Turrets: Reload: 3.3
Total Armor Damage: 4000 Total Shield Damage: 1980
Confed Cruiser: Torpedoes: Armor Damage: 2100 Shield Damage: 1050 Neutron Blasters: Armor Damage: 133 Shield Damage: 399 Patrol Ships: Proton Guns: Reload: 6.6 Missiles: A: 200 S: 100 Proton Turrets: Reload: 2.5
Total Armor Damage: 2433 Total Shield Damage: 1549
As you can plainly see, the Rebel Cruiser actually has more total power than the Confed Cruiser. Not only that, but the reload for the swivel lasers on the Mantas far exceeds the reload for the Confed Patrol Ships. The only area where the Confed Cruiser beats the Rebel Cruiser is in proton turret reload.
Obviously, the Rebel Cruiser is superior.
Rebels rule!!! Long live the Rebellion!
ARRGGH!!! I hope each and every one of you has read the archived thread, because they have already discussed at length what everyone here is talking about. And they spent months bickering and re-bickering about the same stuff. So, let's see if we can come up with some NEW points on the topic of Confed -vs- Rebel.
Having said that, I must now join in with you and argue till I can argue no more.
Oh yeah, and I printed up the entire archived thread for future study.
------------------ CoreyΕ (Cubed) That's Corey x Corey x Corey
Originally posted by Captain Carnotaur: **Well, I did some research on the power for weapons and such, and I came up with the following total powers:
Nice point in your comparison there, I'd never looked at it that way before. I think most of us assume that the Confed Cruiser is more powerful because of its larger size and shields. Although, if memory serves, the Rebel Cruiser is longer. Now that you've piqued my interest, I may have to do my own, more scientific study, including lasers and stuff.
And, coreycubed, if you're going to argue until you can argue no more, you might want to start by stating your position on the issue. Also, I did read the archived thread and always wanted to comment on those points, and this seems to be my chance, so I'm going to use it. I will also argue on any new ones until this gets locked/archived.
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(This message has been edited by Macavenger (edited 05-23-2001).)
Wow. That was a nice argument, Carnotaur. And I thought I was a good debater (I've won a bunch of debates in school)...
Bull$#!+
You admit that you did not include all the weapons on each ship, blunder the addition and multiplication of what you did include, then "conclude" that one was superior!
The proper way to compare the damage done by weapons is to compute how much damage each weapon delivers over time. For each weapon, you must compute how much damage it delivers to shields per second(ds/s), and to armor per second(as/s). You did not provide enough numbers to compute damage/second for any of the weapons you considered-- you need the shield damage (from EV Data in 10x actual damage), the armor damage, and the reload rate (from EV Data in 1/30th second units).
For a single type of weapon: damage/second = ( (damage / 10) / (reload rate * 30) ) * number on ship
The above assuming 100% hit rate for all weapons.
I will not attempt to do this analysis because I do not have EV installed on this particular macintosh, so I cannot get the correct numbers. I do recall the correct weapons at least...
Rebel Cruiser weapons 2 Missile launchers Heavy Rocket launcher (i forget 1 or 2) 4 Proton Turrets 4 Mantas
Confed Cruiser weapons 2 photon torpedoes 4 neutron cannons 4 proton turrets 4 patrolships
Well, I redid Carno's study on the weapons. I hope this proves more satisfactory, though it's not possible to put together a completely accurate picture, because you have to assume a few things, like 100% hit rate.
Mine was calculated based on how much damage could be done by firing all weapons over a 10 second period. While this comes with it's own set of problems, I think it works out a bit better than the way Captain Carnotaur did it. Also, the gap doesn't change a whole lot if you add in the full complement of secondary weapons, instead of just using how many could fire in 10 seconds.
I also used the fact that fighters would have 3 missiles, because of the ammoload adjustment. See (url="http://"http://www.AmbrosiaSW.com/webboard/Forum6/HTML/001541.html")this thread(/url) for info.
Anyway the results were:
Rebel Cruiser: Total Shield Damage: 3930 Total Armor Damage: 3175
Confed Cruiser: Total Shield Damage: 5200 Total Armor Damage: 5600
I don't want to go through this step-by-step, because it would take too long, but the Confed's energy weapons are what pushed it over the top, so this could be a little skewed, because it doesn't use Neutron blasters much, but even if you drop those it's still ahead. i think the common perception that the Fed has more power is probably correct, but not by as much as many people probably think.
BTW, magicianeer, which govt do you prefer?