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Originally posted by PlanetPhil: **The Geneva Conventions were all entered into force by 1950.
By the time we enter the world of Escape Velocity and the Galactic War, it is 2246 almost three hundred years later.
It is easy to see how one side or another would come to look upon the Conventions as being antiquated, or relating only to wartime relations between primitive (and by 2246, probably non-existant) nation-states, or plain old humanistic nonsense. **
Humanistic nonsense is what the rebellion is all about. Besides, the Magna Carta is more than a few centuries old. So's the Constitution. Tell me again how centuries old documents don't matter.
------------------ "You have committed a fatal error and your existence must be terminated." Windows error message.
Originally posted by spl_cadet: **Tell me again how centuries old documents don't matter. **
Don't ask me. Ask the Rebel High Command. If you're going to quote me, quote it all:
Whatever spin you want to put on Rebel reasoning, the fact remains that the Rebellion targets civilian and merchant ships.
That actual game behavior flies in the face of the Geneva Conventions.
You need to calm down, spl_cadet. I was neither denigrating nor extolling the virtues of "humanistic nonsense." Just trying to show how the Rebellion might find a way to ignore ancient treaties.
------------------ PlanetPhil not drowning, waving
(This message has been edited by PlanetPhil (edited 03-23-2001).)
War no longer has any honor. All that was lost at the end of WWII. If the americans had been honorable, they would have landed in Japan with troops, fighting the Japanese in hand-to-hand combat. But no. You dropped two atomic bombs on civilians. Just the same as the rebels kill nay civiians with confed tags on their ships. So you see, the Americans have no honour. In Vienam, you decided that it would be good to burn away all the forest with chemicals, exposing the opponents. But that went wrong. Thousands of friendly civilians killed, injured and the mutations in later generations, hell, you even harmed your own soldiers. Some honorable nation you are. So you see, you can say all you want about the rebellion having no honour. But if they don't, then neither does America, or any other nation. If you come across a ship tagged as rebellion, the fed attack it. It's just the game's behaviour. It's not honor, it's preprogrammed. And what's wrong with Fawlty Towers? It is a work of comic genius! John Cleese is one of the funnies guys alive today. Anime... well, alright, I'll admit I like it sometimes. And sci-fi is good... sometimes. But there's nothing wrong with British humour. It beats anything the americans or japanese have ever produced themselves on the small screen.
------------------
Alright, whoever said that better get ready for some flamming; BECAUSE REBELS DON'T ATTACK INDEPENDENT MERCHANTS AND CIVILLIANS!!!!! Yes, they attack CONFED NOT INDEPENDENT merchants and civillians, but that is all part of war. If you can't handle that fact, better not play EV or EVO, because plenty of civillians, independent and aligned with a government, die.
------------------ To Escape Velocity: Nova and Beyond! -------------- Millennium. Its coming, prepare for it. Coming to the (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiaSW.com/games/ev/chronicles.html")EV Chronicles(/url).
That's not a part of war though, it's a part of EV's game mechanics. You just like to justfiy it because you always side with the Rebels. If Confed ships were going around blowing up Rebel freighters in neutral space, I'm sure you'd change your mind about it. Also, it's not a matter of being able to "handle it", it's merely that we notice the hipocrisy of the Rebels. If they were such noble humanitarians, they wouldn't attack non-combatants.
It is possible to have the Rebels stop doing that, just make another government called Confeds that has no allies or enemies, and assign it to all the Confed merchant düdes. But that would make things too clear cut, having one obviously good, and the other obviously evil is considerably less fun. Sure the Rebels have a good cause, but they're nothing more than pirates, murderers, and terrorists. Whereas the Confeds have a definite totalitarian bent, yet they show considerably more compassion for the civillians. Simply a matter of preference really.
Originally posted by cable_guy: **War no longer has any honor. All that was lost at the end of WWII. If the americans had been honorable, they would have landed in Japan with troops, fighting the Japanese in hand-to-hand combat. But no. You dropped two atomic bombs on civilians. Just the same as the rebels kill nay civiians with confed tags on their ships. So you see, the Americans have no honour. In Vienam, you decided that it would be good to burn away all the forest with chemicals, exposing the opponents. But that went wrong. Thousands of friendly civilians killed, injured and the mutations in later generations, hell, you even harmed your own soldiers. Some honorable nation you are. So you see, you can say all you want about the rebellion having no honour. But if they don't, then neither does America, or any other nation. If you come across a ship tagged as rebellion, the fed attack it. It's just the game's behaviour. It's not honor, it's preprogrammed.
**
Ok I admit we ****ed up in Nam. However don't you ever say that we had no right to nuke Japan. First off, they tossed the Geneva Conventions out the window. Two, if we had done the honorable thing and gone in with troops we would have lost 1,000,000 troops. Half of those would have beeen defenseless POW's. Three, very few off the Japanese people were true civilians at the time. From the age of 6 and up they were trained in killing Americans. Four, we saved Japanese lives. An invasion of Japan would have ended in the death of every Japanese. I will quote the American admiral aboard the Enterprise when it steamed in the night of Dec 7 1941 "When this war is over, the only place the Japanese language will be spoken will be in hell." Five, where was the honor in Pearl Harbor? That sneak raid violated international law by attacking us with out warning or provocation. And don't say that we provoked them by freezing their assets in the U.S. We told them to stop invading every damn country in SouthEast Asia or we would freeze their assets. And we had good reason. You Aussies and Brits don't seem to realize that if it hadn't been for U.S. help you would be under Japanese or German rule. If you don't know what you are talking about like you demonstrated with your saying that it was dishonorable to nuke Japan then you should just shut up. BTW, the reason for agent orange was to stop the ambushes and we didn't know of its effects at the time.
Originally posted by Loki: **That's not a part of war though, it's a part of EV's game mechanics. You just like to justfiy it because you always side with the Rebels. If Confed ships were going around blowing up Rebel freighters in neutral space, I'm sure you'd change your mind about it. Also, it's not a matter of being able to "handle it", it's merely that we notice the hipocrisy of the Rebels. If they were such noble humanitarians, they wouldn't attack non-combatants.
It is possible to have the Rebels stop doing that, just make another government called Confeds that has no allies or enemies, and assign it to all the Confed merchant düdes. But that would make things too clear cut, having one obviously good, and the other obviously evil is considerably less fun. Sure the Rebels have a good cause, but they're nothing more than pirates, murderers, and terrorists. Whereas the Confeds have a definite totalitarian bent, yet they show considerably more compassion for the civillians. Simply a matter of preference really.**
Hah, hypocrites you say? First you say that the Rebels have a good cause, but earlier you talk about the Confeds being "Noble".
And you are wrong, if the Confeds attacked Rebel frieghters, I would be annoyed, but I would not change my view that it is all part of war.
And murdurers? Who do they murder? The only people they murder is the enemy, and that's supposed to happen in wars.
Hey, the Americans are just as much to blame for pearl habour. Pearl harbour had a submarine net across the entrance to the harbour, which was left open leading up to the attack (by planes and submarines), and a submarine was spotted by the destroyer 'Ward", but never told the commanders in the harbour. The radar station at Opana picked up hundreds of Japanese planes coming in towards pearl harbour, and radioed the message to the information centre, which should then have been relayed to the top brass in Pearl Harbour. But the info centre had closed up for breakfast, and all that was on duty were a switchboard operator and an officer waiting to go to breakfast. The reports were ignored, so another chance to mobilise the fleet was lost At 8am on december 7th 1941, the japanese began bombing and dive bombing the ships in pearl harbour and air bases surrounding it. In total, 14 ships were damaged or sunk by japanese forces, plus almost 200 planes. The japanese lost 5 mini-subs, 30 planes and a submarine. Small losses by comparison, only around 100 men. At 3pm that afternoon, a message was recieved by Lt-Gen Walter C Short. The message was that the Japanese were planning an official declaration at 7:30 that morning; the declaration of war. You see, they had already declared war on America before the attack started. But the message wasn't decoded on time - it had actually been sent by cable at 7.33 that morning, but no-one had bothered decoding it. So, you see, the Japanese might have been dishonorable (even though war had already been declared), but the americans on duty had been lazy, ignorant and blind to the possibility of an attack. Being dishonorable is one thing, being stupid is another. And as for Japanese being trained to kill americans from the age of 6, how do we know that the feds don't train kids from the age of 4 how to pilot a gunboat and blow up rebels?
Are you going to spend $15 million to train a four-year old?
Carno, were you serious about that "long live the rebellion" plug? It sounds cool.
------------------ "Die,Die,Die, you stupid Confeds!"
The Pearl Harbor stuff is completely off the mark. But you are a brit, and so you don't know much about U.S. history. The government knew about the invasion well in advance, but chose not to alert the troops. This decision was made because the government wanted to get involved in the war, but the people didn't. So by being attacked, U.S. citizens were angered, and suddenly wanted to fight the Japanese, which somehow translated to a desire to help europe.
And as far as being a "hypocrite" goes. How does one justify destroying unarmed freighters who are in neutral territory and yet claim to be fighting for a just cause? You can't, murder and piracy aren't tactics to be used by the high and mighty, unless you believe that the end always justifies the means. And if you believe that, then I can use that same line of thinking to defend every action of the Confeds. Face it, the Rebels do very bad things, they aren't angels. But, since you can't admit that, I can now state that slavery is not wrong. Why? Because I feel like it.
Originally posted by Loki: The Pearl Harbor stuff is completely off the mark. But you are a brit, and so you don't know much about U.S. history.
I probably know more than you, judging by your remark. I suggest you read a wide variety of sources, not just those published by Americans. I suppose you think that the Americans found the enigma machine aswell....
Originally posted by Loki: Face it, the Rebels do very bad things, they aren't angels.
Yeah, I know. What's your problem with a bit of destruction, death an violence? Your government doesn't seem to shy away from it. Neither do the feds. The rebels aren't angels, but the feds are just evil.
Actually, I'm well aware of the British capturing the Enigma machine, all of the work involved in the Enigma machine, as far as the Allied Forces went, was done in England. As far as your version of Pearl Harbor goes, it's just wrong. It's pretty much common knowledge that the U.S. government knew about the attack well in advance (Either days or weeks, don't remember which), and they didn't warn the commander of the base at Pearl Harbor. They didn't do this because they wanted to get the American people angry and outraged and ready for war. At that time Americans on the whole didn't want to go to war in Europe, we were still recovering from the Great Depression, and WW1. So an attack on our own soil, on our own people, was the only way to get us mad and wanting to fight. Some of the stuff you said about the radar and leaving the front door open likely is accurate, but the reasons for those things happening you seem to blame on American incompetence, which is not accurate.
As far as my view of the Rebels go, at this point I'm mostly yanking on your chains because I know all the Rebel supporters will bite. I've played both sides, several times in fact. So I know the mission suites. The Rebels enjoy using underhanded dirty tactics, there's no disputing that. They most likely feel that the ends justifies the means. The Confeds are much more straight-forward and protective. They value loyalty and honor.
And the next time Carnotaur mentions up forced labor, I'm giving a history on forced labor and slavery throughout the known history of the human species.
I never said, or at least never meant to say (and I'm sorry if I put across the idea) that the Americans are incompitant. Just lazy. Did you know that the guys on shift at the communications station were going to breakfast, and so only put the report on incoming planes through once? That the team that they put the report through to weren't listening, because they too were looking forward to breakfast. They thought that they were invincible. A stupid little nation like Japan would never attack them, and certainly wouldn't attack Pearl Harbour, would they? I don't know how many sources you've checked about the attack on Pearl Harbour. I've done history essays on certain points in the second world war II, and one of them was about America's involvement. I spent 6 hours down at the local library, looking at various sources, english, american, even a japanese one that had been translated into english. They all disagreed on certain things, but at the end of the day, you got the feeling that the Americans were over-confident about their pown strength... anyway, this is a board about escape velocity, not bloody battles in WWI and II. As I see it, I don't exactly support the rebellion in killings of civilians. I myself don't even attack confed warships unless I'm on a mission that requires me to, or if they attack me first. And besides... why do the feds send important VIPS through rebel systems? Never got that myself...
The VIP in Rebel space thing seems to be a mission engine quirk. Can't really see a way to avoid it, since the mission's available on any spöb not owned by Confeds. It's even weirder seeing a Confed VIP in an executive transport in pirate space!
Originally posted by Captain Carnotaur: **Alright, whoever said that better get ready for some flamming; BECAUSE REBELS DON'T ATTACK INDEPENDENT MERCHANTS AND CIVILLIANS!!!!! Yes, they attack CONFED NOT INDEPENDENT merchants and civillians, but that is all part of war. If you can't handle that fact, better not play EV or EVO, because plenty of civillians, independent and aligned with a government, die. **
lol Settle down, Captain. You and spl_cadet are much too tense.
A trader who is loyal to the Confederation is still a civilian not a soldier. A Confed-loyal luxury liner would in no way be considered a military target. unless Rebel intelligence is so poor that it can't verify that there are never any arms on a liner ('cause there aren't, you know). As I said before: The Rebellion targets civilians. It is up to fans of the Rebellion to rationalize why.
(This message has been edited by PlanetPhil (edited 03-27-2001).)
Originally posted by Captain Mollusk: **Carno, were you serious about that "long live the rebellion" plug? It sounds cool.;) **
Completely serious, it's already partially finished. Right now I'm working out a big bug in the programming.
And what if there were Rebel frieghters flying around Rebel space? Just like the Confeds. So, when Confeds appeared, they would attack and destroy the Rebel frieghters. How would you like that? What if your preciously little Confederation turned out to be just as murdurous? Or for you does it not matter because you dislike the Rebellion? Just putting things into prospective (sp?) for you.
Originally posted by Captain Carnotaur: And what if there were Rebel frieghters flying around Rebel space? Just like the Confeds. So, when Confeds appeared, they would attack and destroy the Rebel frieghters. How would you like that? What if your preciously little Confederation turned out to be just as murdurous? Or for you does it not matter because you dislike the Rebellion? Just putting things into prospective (sp?) for you.
But there aren't Rebel freighters flying around that CSN attacks, and I think mcb wrote the scenario this way on purpose. The freighters that the Rebels attack are not "Confed freighters;" many of them are freighters belonging to civilian individuals or corporations. There is no justification for the Rebels to attack them, and no gain for them in doing so. They may have had a cause when they began, but they have become little more than pirates.
------------------ David Arthur Talon Plugin for Classic EV: (url="http://"http://members.aol.com/darthur1/talon-ev/")http://members.aol.c...thur1/talon-ev/(/url)
Originally posted by cable_guy: **So you say that a rebel cruiser with max mods cannot dodge missiles. I beg to differ. A maxed out cruiser, rebel or fed, would have all the maneuverability upgrades. **
The updgraded rebel cruiser can dodge missles, but not with the same maneuvers that a fighter would use. The rebel cruiser is much larger than most other ships. The sharp turn that works for other ships does not work for the cruiser because the cruiser must travel further to get its bulk out of the missle's path. The cruiser must start its evasion earlier than other ships would, or do a more violent evasive maneuver with afterburners. In either case, the rebel must devote more time to the evasion (or recovering from the evasion) which is time not shooting at the confed.
The upgraded confed cruiser is pathetic at dodging missles, but it can dodge a few if it really had to. Not 200 though.
cable_guy said: **A rebel ship, once it has started a circling run outside of turret range, will be able to throw off the missiles, because it can turn tightly enough and has enough speed so that the missiles overshoot and burn up before they can come back in. 200 missiles fired quickly? Easily done. It's easy to outrun missiles launched simultaneously from 10 ships in different areas, so launched one at a time from a cruiser which may well be stationary are easy to avoid. **
I doubt that 200 missles will kill the rebel cruiser, but 200 torpedoes are even more easily avoided by the rebel. But 200 missles + lots of torpedoes (and all the gun/turret slots filled of course) is still the best outfit that a confed cruiser pilot can get if he knows he faces a rebel cruiser.
Against a human, you cannot expect to maintain any sort of regular flight path. The upgraded confed cruiser is hardly stationary-- it does 300 {whatever EV speed units are} compared to 350 for the upgraded rebel cruiser. The confed will move around to make the rebel work harder.
cable_guy said: **I would take down the patrol ships, which, once they have unloaded their weapons, have two choices; do runs at the enemy cruiser, or redock and re-arm. In EV, you have infinite missiles to reload with, but since we're talking human vs human, not possible in EV, we might as well say that there is a finite number of missiles to reload with, so the rebel cruiser could dodge for as long as is necessary, or unload missiles onto the fed patrol ships or gunboats. Then fire the torpedoes or missiles into the fed, mantas redock and unload their missiles, and I believe that the more modified you make the cruisers, the less chance there is of the confederate winning the battle. **
Humans know that sending fighters against cruisers is a waste unless they have backup (eg, the mothership is following), so that wont happen. I doubt mantas and Pt boats launch missles fast enough to do decisive damage to either cruiser, even with infinite reloads. I never had the patience to try it against the AI.
For extreme modifications you are correct that they favor the rebels. The rebel can evade all long range attacks while the confed cannot evade any long range attacks.
Armor and engine upgrades favor the confed cruiser-- they reduce the rebel maneuvering advantage, and the rebel will have to sacrifice some weapons if he wants to mount all three armors.
Originally posted by David Arthur: **But there aren't Rebel freighters flying around that CSN attacks, and I think mcb wrote the scenario this way on purpose. The freighters that the Rebels attack are not "Confed freighters;" many of them are freighters belonging to civilian individuals or corporations. There is no justification for the Rebels to attack them, and no gain for them in doing so. They may have had a cause when they began, but they have become little more than pirates.
WWII showed that civilian shipping and industry are vital military targets which must be neutralized or destroyed. Otherwise they will make and deliver guns that kill your soldiers. The nuclear arsonals for WWIII are aimed at cities-- centers of industry.
Wars of conquest are about who gets to control the civilians and their resources. Your side has won when it has control of all the land and civilians of the other side. So again civilians are a key target.
Non-confed owned ships are labeled with things like "UGE" or "Starbound" or "independent", so the ships labeled "confed" could reasonably be owned and operated by the confed navy. For precedent, the US navy maintains its own supply ships, and is known to transport civilians (as seen recently on a certain submarine).