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Pikeman wrote: **Maridian, yes, there are pyscho kids in our country that kill people. There are also psycho kids in YOUR country that kill people. Why not as many? Because we have alot bigger population and our shootings get televised more because alot of the major TV networks are American.
STOP THIS HATEFUL SAYING THAT AMERICANS ARE MORE STUPID THAN THE REST OF THE WORLD!!! **
Yeah, I expected that population ratio to come up, and in theory it works, except, I haven't heard of any kids killing kids in Australia. Ever. Now I can't say that because you have psycho kids you're all psycho, that's stereotypical and just plain BS. I was actually referring to what kind of society brings kids to doing that? (Not this little one, because I know that even though this topic here has brought us all against each other, it's only this topic, and nobody holds any bad personal feelings or malice towards each other-with the exception of champion-, I find this argument most exciting).
But, back to the point, seriously what kind of society brings that out in children? Gun laws? No. I'm guessing Television. Yes, the age old debate, TV verses Life. TV doesn't make me want to kill someone, but what about a 6 year old? Huh?
I have a theory of why the reason of why Australian kids don't kill each other. Over there, (tell me of I'm wrong) you guys ban sex on TV. We don't. We ban violence. So before somebody says only 1/14 of australian kids kill each other, get Frandall and Pipeline in here. I'd be interested to know the last time they saw on Australian TV a 6 yo killing a schoolmate'.
And yes, it's tragic.
------------------ Three years and my pizza still isn't here.
Maybe I should call.
I was trying not to get into this debate but I just had to. Debate can be good, and even fun but this is getting out of hand. I don't even know why this topic was even brought up. Yes I do live in the United States but no, I am not going to defend it or any other country. National pride can be a good thing but to much only results in dead people. Almost every war in someway has started because of too much national pride. Insulting other people has no positive aspects to it, and the only way that this will ever be resolved is that all sides agree to stop, otherwise this debate will never end. I don't think that closing this thread will solve the problem because then it will just start again. The best technology, economy etc. will only come about through teamwork. Therefore I challenge all sides too simply stop and not insult each other anymore.
(Ps) Please do not close this thread I want to see if we all can just stop.
------------------ Only a few can survive true vengeance
(This message has been edited by Avenger (edited 03-16-2000).)
Avenger, I hardly think that us EV fans are going to start a war. Get over it, and join in the fun. (I don't think fighting is fun, but this isn't fighting, it's a friendly dispute.)
Jeremy Woodruff wrote: **now i admit, i'm only 15 years old (16 next month), and you obviously have more life experience than me and better education. but... i still think my statement was very logical. that whole thing about idiotic behavior is very sound. now that may not mean that all the points he brought up are idiotic... but it does influence his view on things/perspective.
to tell you the truth, your whole statement didn't really make sense, i would ask that you revise it a little (on some of the parts) so it would sound better.
his statement was very hypocritical, saying that arguments are idiotic, yet still putting in his two cents. so i'd have to say that pretty much shows his ethos isn't very stable.**
You basically said that Maridian's entire argument was idiotic and 'therefore bogus' simply because he pointed out that he thought much of what people were arguing about was stupid. From a linguistic point of view, that doesn't mean that his arguments are also stupid. For example, an entire argument can be viewed as stupid when one side is flagrantly ridiculous, and the other is not. For in that case, the fact that there is argument, when one side of the argument is so obviously superior to the other, is ridiculous because if all sides were being sensible, there would be no argument.
What I am saying is that your statement that because he said that he thought the argument is stupid does not necessarily mean that his statements within the argument are also stupid, he could be referring to the fact that he thinks that your side of the argument is so obviously flawed, and the fact that you are continuing to try to counter his statements makes the entire argument as a whole ridiculous, while his comments (to him at least) make far more sense.
I'm not saying that I in any way endorse his comments, or that I dislike your own (I'm not buying into the nation vs nation debate), I am merely pointing out a minor flaw in your logic that you used to try to completely destroy Maridian's points. You are going to have to argue over each and every point that he brings up (and he will have to do the same with your arguments) to reach any satisfactory conclusion.
------------------
sigh This topic was origionally brought up by me as a little joke about Basilisk's use of quotes. The fact that it started this debate is a complete suprise to me.
Maridian, you're mostly right. We definitly don't ban sex on TV, we ban nudity (except for the premium channels like HBO, but you have to be an adult to subscribe to that and it costs extra) But violence on American TV is WAY out of hand. Pointless and useless violence happens on our TV about every 5 seconds. WWF,WCW, these stupid spy shows? It's incredibly stupid. Violence like in "Saving Private Ryan" isn't pointless. It's a memorial to those who died in WW2, and it teaches a lesson never to let a man like Hitler rise to power again. Violence like in Jerry Springer is just shock value.
I am completely for the theory that TV influences kids to violence. It's a type of brainwashing. If you sit a young and impressional kid in front of a TV where people are brutally murdering each other, it desensitizes him and wears down his natural reaction to murder, which is that it is bad. It will make killing seem just like a normal thing to do. But that's not the only factor that induces kids to kill. It's heredity, but environment more.
If a kid from 50 years ago saw Jerry Springer, he would probably be so shocked he would either throw up or turn off the TV in disgust. Today people cheer over it. That's a big factor in the stupid calling of Americans. But people who watch that sh*t are stupid in my opinon, and I'm an American, so don't genralize. If Australia bans that, then more power to 'ya. It should be an example for us.
Anyway, I don't regret the fact that we have this debate because we would have had to have it anyway to resolve some international and otherwise issues. That what world politics is about anyway. But some of the things people are saying sound more like fight threats than "friendly disputes". I said we should lock this debate if we couldn't be civil about it, and I stick with what I said. This debate is very interesting and exiting as long as we don't hit below the belt.
p.s.- I loved Nicole Kidman in "Eyes Wide Shut"
funny you should mention the below the belt thing...
shut the fck up about the whole tv violence bull sht. yeah i don't usually resort to this caveman behavior but i'm tired and cranky... and sometimes a debate needs this wild sort of behavior.
i think that whole tv thing is bull sh*t, and never talk about it again. i've watched so much tv its ridiculous, but i aint out killing everyone. the reason we have violence is because we're taught it by peers/ parents... nothing else!!!!
taxes suck... sometimes people are ######s... sometimes traffic lights can be b*tches...
but america still kicks ass!!!
go america!!! we rule!!!
good bye cruel discussion board... hello big breasts
Alrighty lets go
--- To anyone I may have offended: If I offended you, then you ARE an idiot... and likely a hypocrite at that, seeing how it is ok to insult Americans but its not okay to insult non-Americans
--- To people who GOT the point of my post, good for you I do not believe I am genetically superior to anyone else, nor do I have anything against the English or their descendents... etc. I was only making a slightly sarcastic point.
--- To Kevin
You mean Einstein was AMERICAN??? ------ Obviously you have no understanding of the history of nuclear physics. You think Einstein invented it? HA! The Los Alamos lab was IN America, and yes it had SOME non-Americans working their. However, fact is, America was the FIRST nation to cause a nuclear reaction
So would we be if we sat out two world wars until we had the rest of the world in hock ------Hmm, America was doing quite well for a nation with 90 million people BEFORE WWI. Much better off than many countries with MUCH MUCH higher populations. We did not sit out of both wars. I forgot, how many fronts did America have in WWII? With fought against EVERY axis power and worked with every allied nation. We fought along side the Soviets, the English, French, Italians and many other nations in combat. - WWI was an incredibly stupid war, we wanted nothing to do with it. If all of Europe does something so stupid as to have treaties that would explode into a Great War, they deserve what they get. The causes and war was stupid, as would we be if we joined in at the beginning.
Are the 'leaders' of the internet (look were most servers are) BIG DEAL. You certainly are the leaders in Internet porn. ---Oh excellent comeback. Enjoying our porn
Have the largest and toughest military Then why didn't you send them to Vietnam instead of the wimps?? ---Vietnam COULD of been won, but with very high civilian costs. Americans did not believe in nuking or mass bombing cities in the 1960s-70s.
Protecting your debtors --- Who were we protecting against Japan? Oh yea... they attacked us. We all know how much Australia owed us -Rolls Eyes-
Held back and helped end the Soviet union-Ehh?? --- Get a history book, remember the cold war?
And were SECOND into space --- Unlike the USSR, we had a thing called SAFETY. Countless lives were lost in the Soviet Space programs, while the American space program had few casualties. The only reason they got their first was because they started without TELLING US. It is not a race if you dont say when it starts
------------------ RIP THE SYSTEM!
-Ankh
Mikee, USA isn't perfect. You aren't the pinnacle of human evolution. You are... a nation. A nation that has problems just like all the other nations: violence, drugs, crime, pollution, racism, lack of good education for all people, the list goes on. You still have death sentences. You have slums. Social services? Minimal. Standard of living? Hmm, sure most people are well, but what about those who aren't?
--- Whats wrong with Capital punishment? Oh I see, its much better to confine people and have them kill, beat and rape each other. As for those who aren't, they are lazy. Its VERY easy to get RICH in America, the unemployment rate in my town, last I checked was at 2.9%. There are no slums, there is government housing for everyone, I would love to see pictures of these "slums"
However, I think your point of view is somewhat limited. USA has the best scientists in the world? The strongest economy in the world? Look at Japan. Just because you won them once in a war doesn't mean you're superior to them in all respects. Also, in many European countries, social services are far superior to the ones in USA.
--- Social Services? You speak as if these are a GOOD thing. Many of us here dont feel a need to share our money with the irresponsible. Why should I pay a smokers hospital bill? Japans economy is horrible now, they still have many exports but they are in a recession-almost-depression right now.
As for USA's people, you're not giving me a particularily good picture. Mikee, you're patriotic, you have more than your share of national egoism, you're more than a little rasistic ("German? What can you say. NAZIS!"). Listen, I've LIVED in Germany, and the people there are all right.
--- How am I racist?
As for USA having a lot of the most smart people in the world, there are a lot of smart people elsewhere too. Linus Torvalds who you happened to mention in some other string earlier, happens to be Finnish for example.
--- Where is Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, JP Morgan (sure the last three are evil, but intelligent nonetheless =)), George Washington, Tom Jefferson, Franklin and Lincoln (OH COULD I GO ON) from?
You are eager to to point out that nations such as those in Afrika are doing worse than USA. However, just because USA isn't the WORST nation in the world it isn't neccessarily the best.
---I never said it was the best, it has both good aspects and bad. It simply has a great number of advantages and doesn't deserve to be insulted more than any other nation. Last I checked, Finland, Japan and Australia were not perfect either.
Andrew M- Japan's economy is better. Umm Australia's military tech. is better. --- LOL! Now thats FUNNY! Apparently you haven't BEEN TO JAPAN IN THE LAST 10 YEARS! Australia's? BWA HAHA!
freedom of speech, freedom of religion, why do you think everyone's moving overhere buddy? --US allies have more of the same freedom, besides, this country is biased against itself. All thepeople are moving here? Hah! Explain why the US doesn't have the hugest pop. in the world, then.
--- Because we dont have families with 10 kids a piece. China and India are INCREDIBLY old, last I checked, America wasn't. You have any idea what 100 million immigrants a year would do? We have to put restrictions on immagrantion because so many want in. You should look at a history of immagrantion. Only now do second and third generation Americans outnumber immagrants and their kids.
Champion- I agree completly except for the Australia's military technology is better, were using American subs from about the second world war. ---Huh?
But Americans are worse than the Russians, they can do whatever they like and get away with it e.g dumping a lot of agent orange on 'Nam --- Whats wrong with Agent Orange? Last I heard bullets were deadly too. Its war, war is NOT nice. You must be referring to
bombing the crap out of people just because they wouldn't show them how many bombs they have. America has more bombs than anyone else but no one dares question them.
--- You must be referring to Iraq, funny... many NATO nations were WITH US. Iraq invaded another nation and threatened others. Did you know how many missles they sent (not delivered, they BOMBED) to countries like Israel? Those poor people were at constant risk. Sorry if we CARE about its neighbors and want to see how many weapons, chemical and possibly nuclear they had. Our war with Iraq is seen as heroic throughout the Middle East - and most of the world
-Maridian And now I come to the matter of the Americans and their so called tech breakthroughs. WRONG! You guys have the money, not thte brains. You can buy the materials needed, and the minds. The guy that made the atom bomb was BRITISH! ---LOL! I would love to know how many technological breakthroughs we bought What was his name? I thought it was a team of physicist at Los Alamos...
-Bozong you have drug problems, immigration problems( I mean the trucks filled with Mexicans that flee there), pollution, overpopulation, etc --- Its people of ALL nations of the world that come to America. I guess they come here because of the bad economy, little protection and massive violence right?
(This message has been edited by mikee J (edited 03-20-2000).)
Lets rap this puppy up:
Pikeman, agreed... to some extent. Why on Earth we allow children to watch violence, without explaining the difference between reality and TV I will never know. Combine that with a parents "hidden" gun and you get a deadly combination. Many "children" like myself (years ago) were told where a gun was, and some are even showed how to use one. If many kids realized what a gun can do, other than go bang and look cool on TV, they CERTAINLY wouldn't point one at a friend. Education is the key here.
Frandall, agreed... to some extent. You cant say one military is just 'better' than another, Australia has many cool things, every country has some advantage over another, but my "America has the best military" was based on size, number of technological break-throughs... etc. America could win a non-nuclear war with just about any country, including Vietnam if we were willing to kill swarms of civilians.
Folks, Australia wouldn't have a chance against America's "Better" military. It would win because of the mass numbers and large technological breakthroughs. But Australia certainly has its share of gizmos and could take on many countries much larger than it, for its size I gotta say... damn!
mikee J wrote: --- To anyone I may have offended: If I offended you, then you ARE an idiot...
So WE'RE idiots because YOU flame everyone in sight?!?!?! You deserve to be banned. You're a little too stubborn for your own good
------------------ OpenGL Avara!
AIM: EVAndrewM
416D6572696361207375636B732E
Andrew M wrote: **So WE'RE idiots because YOU flame everyone in sight?!?!?! You deserve to be banned. You're a little too stubborn for your own good **
Anyone who GOT my point want to explain it to Andrew M? I wasn't "really flaming", I was trying to evoke so much anger in my post, so insulting that people would realize I was not being serious.
My hope was that a few people like you and Frandall (though I thought Frandall would understand it) would immediatly respond in anger, then those who knew what I was trying to do would explain it... instead I got labeled as racist and other wonderful names. Where the heck is Rball when you need him? He'd get it
Anyways, I thought I throughly explained it since no one else did, but here is the full, unquestionable, all answering explaination:
Everyone was calling Americans idiots and other insulting names. They were not really calling ALL Americans idiots, just being general; calling Americans as a whole idiots. I do not believe (or rather HOPE not) that they were calling each individual American here an idiot. They were being general in their insults. I thought, why not have fun?
So what do I do? Well, I insulted people of other nations in general - making fun of their people, but not attacking each individual. Expectedly, someone (Frandall) took it personally and defended himself - just as I had done. I was explaining through an example why I was defending America. People thought I was trying to be some ultra-hard core American patriot when I was pointing out what makes America great. It was simply, "Don't call all Americans idiots, look at all we have done". Their insults were a bit unfair, Americans have done great things. We make up 5% of the world's population, yet do so much... how can we be idiots? We lead the world in technology, power and economics, we have one of the highest standards if living in the world (though not the greatest, we have a lot of people immagrating here, starting with nothing).
Does everyone understand? I pointed out our advantages to show we are not idiots. If other nations have similiar populations, longer histories, how could a nation that started out less than 400 years ago with NOTHING do so well if it was full of idiots?
Also, some people take these "general insults" personally. Stereotypes are not cool, they are insulting to some people... that was my main point though...
Well, you were calling ALL Germans 'Nazis'.
andrew how stupid can you be?
look at soviet's explanation you moron.
Aww, I was hoping that this stupid nationalism debate had died on its own.
Anyway, after reading these posts and after much thought and thumb-twiddling, I've come to a sad conclusion - people as a whole are incredibly stupid. Nationalism, racism, poverty - hell, it's all caused by the general ignorance, apathy, and hateful nature of humanity in general. Americans are not more stupid on the average than other people - and we aren't much for doing intelligent things either. Let's all shut up and play EV.
------------------ "I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids." -Gen. Jack Ripper, Dr. Strangelove
Nice one Cold Fusion
Nationalism, Intolerance, Capitalism, roots of all Evil
------------------ 'Stormbringer!' he cried and then the hellsword struck his chest. H e felt the icy touch of the blade against his heart,felt his body constrict,felt it sucking his soul from the very depths of his being,felt his whole personality being drawn into the Runesword. [mailto:jr.watkins@virgin. net](http://mailto:jr.watkins@virgin.<br /> net)jr.watkins@virgin. net
Stormbringer wrote: **Nice one Cold Fusion:)
Nationalism, Intolerance, Capitalism, roots of all Evil **
Capitalism, as I have realized, is NOT the root of evil. Nor is any form of free market and money-exchange bad. Money is not the problem, it's greed. Money is good in that you don't have to waste time agrueing over how much some little thing is worth, heck.. imagion trying trading your goods at the grocery store!
Intolerance? I don't tolerate murder and rape, so I guess that makes me evil, huh? =p
Hmmm.... Let's see.... I am Scottish (Clan McLachlan), Dutch, and French (Hugenot). I was born in Bloemfontein, South Africa (and moved away in political protest). Now I live in Canada. That might make me the stupidist person here, right? Except that I moved to Canada, a fabulous place! The US does make some (or provides me with some) great aftermarket parts for my supercharged MR2..... I think there is a lot to learn from other countries: travel as much as possible!!! Oh, and I am working on an EV plug....
------------------ Mace means no.
mikee J wrote: ** -Maridian And now I come to the matter of the Americans and their so called tech breakthroughs. WRONG! You guys have the money, not thte brains. You can buy the materials needed, and the minds. The guy that made the atom bomb was BRITISH! ---LOL! I would love to know how many technological breakthroughs we bought What was his name? I thought it was a team of physicist at Los Alamos...
**
Ah, finally, Mikee, you're back.
You obviously misunderstood me about the money thing. I didn't mean you BOUGHT the damn tech, I just meant you have the money to buy the resources (and possibly the minds, although I'm not saying americans aren't smart) needed to build that kind of stuff.
I'm not in this international debate because I think Australia is better than the US. I've never been there so I can't judge, and Oz is getting worse every day thanks to little johnny and his evil minions. I'm in this because I think this is fun. Whoever said that thing about fight threats or whatever, who threatened anyone? I didn't. Hell, Mikee didn't (he OFFENDED, but that's different).
BTW, Mikee, the AusMilitary Tech debate has been on for a while. Frandall's in it. I can't remember what was said, except for our level of basic training being better than yours (according to Frandall). Although you guys have a lot more gizmos than us, but we can hold our own. But 14:1, those are odds even Australian soldiers can't b
Maridian wrote: **BTW, Mikee, the AusMilitary Tech debate has been on for a while. Frandall's in it. I can't remember what was said, except for our level of basic training being better than yours (according to Frandall). Although you guys have a lot more gizmos than us, but we can hold our own. But 14:1, those are odds even Australian soldiers can't b(eat?) **
The message was snipped slightly. One on one, we would beat the American army. I can't say much about an air war, as I actually know very little about comparisons between US and Australian pilots, and the US Navy would whoop ours forever. Conflict between US and Australia would be won by the US, but at enormous cost (especially if the US was trying to invade). Our soldiers are taught to operate almost autonomously down to groups as small as nine men, which would make it very difficult for the American Army to destroy us utterly, but in the end the numbers would tell. Mind you you would be forever bogged down doing it because you would have to tie up enormouse resources trying to keep Australia pacified against the 'terrorist' elements that would remain of the Australina army.
As for you being back Mikee, I was offended by your post personally insulting people of other nations (including mine and therefore me). Yes, I got your point (in fact I got your point from posts you made earlier), but even so, it still offended me. Just because a specific few people are offending you, does not mean you have the right to insult people outside that particular argument. That was my point. If you read my initial post replying to your post in question, you will see that I personally agree with your right to be patriotic and to defend your coutry and its actions (you will also find that I pointed out that the US has an arguable case to say that it is one of the greatest countries on Earth). I did however still object to the way you went about it. On the other hand however, everybody who has been trying to insult the US should back off as well. Just because you have seen a tv show, or even if you live there and dislike a few policies and a few people, does not mean that you have the right to say that americans are stupid. I have never thought that mikee is stupid (even if I don't agree with everything he says), and that in itself disproves the statement that Americans are stupid because there is at least one who isn't. And many others on this board are also American, and nearly all (except for a couple of insignificant annoyances) are at least average in intelligence (or better). That would indicate to me that a fair number of Americans are not stupid, and that quite possibly a number of them are quite intelligent.
Hell, the US is one of the most powerful nations on Earth (if not the most powerful), and they didn't get into that position by being ignorant, stupid or lazy.
But please mikee, I would appreciate it if you only personally insulted those who personally insult you in the future.