Mafia game proposal

Poll: Mafia Proposal (8 member(s) have cast votes)
Are you interested in playing?
Yes
(7 votes [87.50%] - View)
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Percentage of vote: 87.50%
No
(1 votes [12.50%] - View)
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Percentage of vote: 12.50%

Hey guys. I wanted to ask if you would be interested in playing another Mafia game, non-GTW? It's based on the GTW rules, but there's some changes that should change the gameplay significantly. Here's the basics:

The game is a three team game, instead of a two team game. The first two are Towny and Mafia, both more or less the same except for some slightly changed roles for the innocent team, but the third is the Cult. The Mafia wins by killing off the opposition, but the Cult wins by converting other players into Cult players, until everyone's team affiliation is to the Cult. This means that the Townies have to deal with two enemy factions, but the Mafia has to as well (and of course the Cult does also), so everyone is in danger from two sides at once.

The Cult always starts with just one player-the Cthulhu. The Cthulhu has a first turn elimination safeguard and a special ability (in the same sense that nightkilling is a Mafia special ability). The safeguard is that if the Cthulhu is lynched or nightkilled in the first turn, there is a 50% chance that someone else will randomly be chosen to be possessed by Cthulhu's evil power, becoming the new Cthulhu. This can happen to any player. The special ability is that every night, the Cthulhu can choose a player to attack, and, again with a 50% success rate, convert into a Cultist.

The Cultist keeps their original abilities, but their odds of success are cut in half (if 100%, now 50%, if 50%, now 25%). A former Mafia convert can attempt to nightkill, but only has 50% chances of success, and only one Mafia convert can attempt to nightkill at a time

The win conditions are as normal for the Townies and Mafia. The Cult loses when the Cthulhu is killed, and wins when everyone else is converted into a Cult player.

Again, the game mechanics are mostly the same, except for the concept of Visiting. Any player who uses a role on another player during the night is Visiting that player. Mafia are Visiting when they attempt a nightkill.

The Townies have a role called Private Eye which enables them to conduct surveillance on other players during the night and see if those players are Visiting other people. However, there are several Towny special roles which are Visiting roles. If a player is identified as Visiting people, that's all that is known. It's not possible to tell what they are doing during the visit. So basically, in this game you'll have some idea of other people's night time movements, but no instant identification a la IA.

As far as PMs go, Mafia are allowed to do so as much as they want, especially to organize. Townies can PM other players as well. Cult, however, are not allowed to communicate amongst themselves, and if they are pm'ed by other people, they should either A: not respond at all or B: message the other people back with insane ramblings and general crazy talk. They aren't required to do any crazy talk in normal forum discussions though, so they can innocently deny it when confronted. Crazy talk is strongly encouraged , but not absolutely neccesary. Posting screenshots of PMs to prove accusations of crazy talk is against the rules.

edit: Also, after some thought, I want to make another point- no editing game posts, and that includes ninja editing, moderators. People need to have accurate original information, sometimes a slip up can allow a breakthrough. And yes, I realize the irony of this edit.

Spoilered below is the Towny special role list, if you're interested.

Spoiler

Bodyguard. VISITING ROLE: Has the ability to visit someone and protect them from being attacked during the night If they protect the subject from the Cthulhu, they are attacked by the Cthulhu themselves.

Busybody. VISITING ROLE. Has the ability to visit someone at night to interfere with their VISITS, preventing them from succeeding at any attempted VISITS. This only has a 50% chance of success when dealing with the Cthulhu-if the Busybody fails, they are instantly CONVERTED, but the original target is not visited. The original target will, however, receive a notice of hearing the sound of a struggle, which is an indicator that they have been protected by the Busybody.
If a Busybody visits a Bodyguard who is attempting to protect that Busybody, the Busybody cancels out the Bodyguard, to everyone's embarrassment.

Private Eye. SPECIAL ROLE. Has the ability to surveil someone to see if they visit another player during the night. If the Private Eye is killed, any reports they had gained during that TURN will be given to THE SIDE WHICH KILLED THEM, whether Towny, Mafia, or Cult. If the Private Eye is killed by the Townies (aka LYNCHED), all sides can see what his reports say. There should always be a Private Eye on the Towny team.

Paranoid. SPECIAL ROLE. Has the ability to target another player to die if the Paranoid is killed. If they are CONVERTED, they will suicide, thus being impossible to CONVERT.

So, please take a look at this and let me know if you're interested. If we can get enough people who are, I'll post a game topic so we can play this game either here or on the ATT, whichever people think is more appropriate.

This post has been edited by Shlimazel : 01 September 2012 - 02:55 PM

Just to clarify, this is a game that will run simultaneously with the regular GTW game as a playtest?

Yes, it'll run simultaneously with normal GTW games.

As far as playtest goes (ninja editor), I don't know. I'd like to just keep running it in parallel, since it has its own theme distinct from GTW, but we'll see what people think. Having two games running could only increase activity on these boards, which is never a bad thing.

This post has been edited by Shlimazel : 01 September 2012 - 01:58 PM

So, mrxak and retep so far. We'll need at least 4, but preferably 5 more people for this game to be worth playing. Is anyone else interested?

Also, if no one ultimately ends up being willing to play this separate from GTW, is anyone willing to play this for GTW 42?

I'd rather run this separately, at least for the first time.

I'd be interested in playing that. My online time would be somewhat limited, but now that school's settled into a balance I should be able to find some time each day to play.

Sounds good, thanks Mackilroy. Everyone else- we still need 3 people to meet the minimum requirements to play, preferably 4 to ensure enough maneuvering room to make a really good game, so don't hesitate to sign up if you're interested.

Interested!

Did you just make this up as you went along, or is this an actual game that actually works? (I mean no offense; it just seems like—jeez.)

Seems like God has a lot of coin-flipping or whatever to do. Also there are various other mechanics questions I wonder about, such as:

If there are mafia cultists everywhere, how is it determined which of them gets to attempt to (night)kill someone?

What sort of information, if any, is revealed about a lynched player?

Does Cthulhu know whether or not his conversion succeeds?

If the first Cthulhu is killed on the first night, and someone else with a special power becomes Cthulhu, do they keep their special power in addition to gaining the Cthulhu power? Can they use both each night, or do they have to choose which of the two to use on any particular night?

Who wins if Cthulhu is dead, but all of the Townies and Mafia are also dead (i.e., Cultists are everywhere—and everyone)?

If the Private Eye is killed by the Paranoid's special power (and the Paranoid is—still—a Towny), am I correct in understanding that the Private Eye's intel will go to the Townies only?

This post has been edited by Techerakh : 16 September 2012 - 09:04 AM

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Did you just make this up as you went along, or is this an actual game that actually works? (I mean no offense; it just seems like—jeez.)

There was probably a way to phrase that sentence that wouldn't need the "I mean no offense" qualifier, dude, because honestly that's pretty rude. Still, it's a fair question. This is something that I came up with after reading about games of mafia that had more than two teams. This is a way to try it out, you could consider it a prototype. If there's a good reason to change something before putting the rules into use, I'm glad to have it pointed out so the rules can be adjusted for balance.

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Seems like God has a lot of coin-flipping or whatever to do. Also there are various other mechanics questions I wonder about, such as:

If there are mafia cultists everywhere, how is it determined which of them gets to attempt to (night)kill someone?

Only one can kill at a time, but I hadn't considered which cultist would get to try and get make the kill. Allowing Cultists to keep some of their abilities is something I was going to leave out of this post originally, but I decided to leave it in and see what everyone thought of it. I thought it might make things interesting, but it's not absolutely necessary, and I have no problem with taking it out if people think it seems unreasonable.

I should note that in this event, the only randomly determined thing left would be the Cthulhu's night time attacks. Also, any randomness will be handled with Random.org.

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What sort of information, if any, is revealed about a lynched player?

Innocents, Mafia, and Cultists are revealed as such. If the Cthulhu is killed in the first turn, the description for his role will reflect whether or not his failsafe worked (IE, if there is a new Cthulhu or if he's been killed off permanently). If he's killed after the first turn, you will be informed of his role and his death the same as any other character.

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Does Cthulhu know whether or not his conversion succeeds?

Yes, because he's aware of who his team mates are, the same with the Cultists. They just aren't allowed to co-ordinate, as co-ordination is basically a Mafia special ability in this scenario.

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If the first Cthulhu is killed on the first night, and someone else with a special power becomes Cthulhu, do they keep their special power in addition to gaining the Cthulhu power? Can they use both each night, or do they have to choose which of the two to use on any particular night?

They lose their old abilities and exclusively have Cthulhu powers.

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Who wins if Cthulhu is dead, but all of the Townies and Mafia are also dead (i.e., Cultists are everywhere—and everyone)?

If the Cthulhu dies, either because his failsafe fails to work in the first turn or he or she is killed off after the first turn, the Cult team loses instantly, the same way as the Mafia loses instantly if they're killed off. It's therefore not possible for the Cthulhu to be killed and then the cultists be left to keep playing-that's what incites the cultists to want to keep their boss alive. I suppose it's technically possible for everyone to lose in this game, but I would imagine that it would be extremely unlikely.

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If the Private Eye is killed by the Paranoid's special power (and the Paranoid is—still—a Towny), am I correct in understanding that the Private Eye's intel will go to the Townies only?

There's a clause for that: if the Private Eye is killed by the Townies then the information he has is visible to all players as it is posted in the game topic. The Paranoid would be the same as the Private Eye getting lynched.

Think of this mechanic as being similar to everyone knowing the role of someone who has been killed. It's like you kill the Private Eye and find his notes, then everyone gets to look at them. Of course, if the Mafia kills him, it'll be during the night, so they'll be the only ones to see the notes, because they'll be alone with the body. That sort of thing.

Anything else?

@shlimazel, on 16 September 2012 - 12:51 PM, said in Mafia game proposal:

There was probably a way to phrase that sentence that wouldn't need the "I mean no offense" qualifier, dude, because honestly that's pretty rude. Still, it's a fair question. This is something that I came up with after reading about games of mafia that had more than two teams. This is a way to try it out, you could consider it a prototype. If there's a good reason to change something before putting the rules into use, I'm glad to have it pointed out so the rules can be adjusted for balance.

Yeah, you're right, sorry. I thought it was an actual game, but then I started to get the feeling that maybe it wasn't, but—yeah. Anyway, I mean, I'd be happy to playtest it, though I would argue that maybe some of the percentage rules should be tweaked. The idea of things happening probabilistically in a mafia game (that is to say, a game with a lot of uncertainty) rubs me the wrong way. (And by tweaked I really mean eliminated. I suppose the idea behind all of the probabilities is that otherwise the Cultists would be too powerful. Maybe that's true, but I can't help but think there would be a better way to balance them off.)

@shlimazel, on 16 September 2012 - 12:51 PM, said in Mafia game proposal:

Only one can kill at a time, but I hadn't considered which cultist would get to try and get make the kill. Allowing Cultists to keep some of their abilities is something I was going to leave out of this post originally, but I decided to leave it in and see what everyone thought of it. I thought it might make things interesting, but it's not absolutely necessary, and I have no problem with taking it out if people think it seems unreasonable.

I like the idea of Cultists retaining their abilities, especially with respect to the Towny special abilities. The only real problematic area is with the Mafia kill ability, right? How do the non-Cultist Mafia decide whom to kill? I presume the entire Mafia team gets only one kill, which they decide on via consensus (or vote). (If this is inaccurate let me know.) My suggestion would be to change nothing when a Mafioso becomes a Cultist. That is to say, that person would continue to participate in the Mafia discussions about who would be killed, and thus there would always be just one Mafia kill per night, regardless of how many Mafia were or were not Cultists.

@shlimazel, on 16 September 2012 - 12:51 PM, said in Mafia game proposal:

If the Cthulhu dies, either because his failsafe fails to work in the first turn or he or she is killed off after the first turn, the Cult team loses instantly, the same way as the Mafia loses instantly if they're killed off. It's therefore not possible for the Cthulhu to be killed and then the cultists be left to keep playing-that's what incites the cultists to want to keep their boss alive. I suppose it's technically possible for everyone to lose in this game, but I would imagine that it would be extremely unlikely.

So the Cultists "lose" immediately, but they don't all die, right? So it sounds like the answer to my question is that all three teams lose. I don't necessarily think this is a problem.

This post has been edited by Techerakh : 16 September 2012 - 01:15 PM

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Yeah, you're right, sorry. I thought it was an actual game, but then I started to get the feeling that maybe it wasn't, but—yeah. Anyway, I mean, I'd be happy to playtest it, though I would argue that maybe some of the percentage rules should be tweaked. The idea of things happening probabilistically in a mafia game (that is to say, a game with a lot of uncertainty) rubs me the wrong way. (And by tweaked I really mean eliminated. I suppose the idea behind all of the probabilities is that otherwise the Cultists would be too powerful. Maybe that's true, but I can't help but think there would be a better way to balance them off.)

It's okay, I understand. You're right on with the reason for the random success for cultist special roles, I was trying to avoid unbalancing things by having that mechanic, because I thought it could get ugly if they had the normal 100% success rate of Towny powers. One alternative that comes to mind is the idea of them only using their abilities every other turn instead. There's precedent for those kinds of roles in GTW at least, I think, and it removes some of the probability based elements.

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I like the idea of Cultists retaining their abilities, especially with respect to the Towny special abilities. The only real problematic area is with the Mafia kill ability, right? How do the non-Cultist Mafia decide whom to kill? I presume the entire Mafia team gets only one kill, which they decide on via consensus (or vote). (If this is inaccurate let me know.) My suggestion would be to change nothing when a Mafioso becomes a Cultist. That is to say, that person would continue to participate in the Mafia discussions about who would be killed, and thus there would always be just one Mafia kill per night, regardless of how many Mafia were or were not Cultists.

Yeah, the Mafia still get one kill and decide on who to target via consensus, then they tell me who to kill, as normal. On one hand, I like your suggestion, it makes sense that the Mafia cultists would just try to influence the Mafia players to act in favor of Cthulhu the same as they try to influence the Townies. There is one problem, in that it works against the rule that the Cultists can't talk to people in PMs, and it would incidentally some of the tension a Mafia team would have when they lose contact with someone and realize that that player is now a cultist.

Another option is to just say that the nightkill is a Mafia team ability, not a Mafia player ability (which is basically the truth after all, it's not the same as a Towny special role where the player has the abilities him or herself) and say a Mafia cultist has no special abilities.

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So the Cultists "lose" immediately, but they don't all die, right? So it sounds like the answer to my question is that all three teams lose. I don't necessarily think this is a problem.

Oh wait, do all the Cultists die? I didn't really understand your question last time, I think. What I intended originally was that if the Cthulhu is killed, the Cultists lose, which for out purposes means they're out of the game. So yeah, you could think of it as "they all die if the Cthulhu dies".

This game seems like it would strongly benefit from a large number of players, for more room to maneuver.

This post has been edited by Shlimazel : 16 September 2012 - 02:28 PM

Also, double posting because I want to make sure that this is seen and understood: If we play this game, I would ask that nobody edit their posts, including ninja editing. Actually, ESPECIALLY ninja editing, because it's an abuse of your moderator privileges. Editing a post and making it look like it's the original post enables you to protect yourself from slip ups you may have made in the actual original that would give other people clues without alerting other people to the fact that you changed something you said.

In other words, ninja editing is cheating , almost as bad as posting screenshots of private correspondences, and if we play this game, I'm not going to be too keen on people who are cheating. I'm also not going to be too keen on seeing people's posts getting deleted during the game. You may be moderators, but you've agreed to come into the topic and play a game with everyone else, people who aren't moderators for the most part, fair and square, obeying the same constrictions as everyone else. If we play the game, as the host and as someone who is without the same moderation abilities you have and therefore unable to constrain you, I'm trusting you to do exactly that. Do not abuse my trust in you, please. Thank you.

This post has been edited by Shlimazel : 16 September 2012 - 02:29 PM

This includes editing people's posts and subsequently deleting them into order to coerce them into leaving the game.

I'm looking at you mrxak.

@shlimazel, on 16 September 2012 - 01:59 PM, said in Mafia game proposal:

One alternative that comes to mind is the idea of them only using their abilities every other turn instead. There's precedent for those kinds of roles in GTW at least, I think, and it removes some of the probability based elements.

This is probably a step in the right direction. I haven't had the experience in playing in a GTW game with every-other-turn abilities, so I don't know how well it works.

@shlimazel, on 16 September 2012 - 01:59 PM, said in Mafia game proposal:

Yeah, the Mafia still get one kill and decide on who to target via consensus, then they tell me who to kill, as normal. On one hand, I like your suggestion, it makes sense that the Mafia cultists would just try to influence the Mafia players to act in favor of Cthulhu the same as they try to influence the Townies. There is one problem, in that it works against the rule that the Cultists can't talk to people in PMs, and it would incidentally some of the tension a Mafia team would have when they lose contact with someone and realize that that player is now a cultist.

Let me ask more about the game mechanics, since I've only ever Godded IRC games—is there a chief mafioso or something who gives the final kill order to the game master, or how does it work? If, for instance, several mafia simply cannot agree on whom to kill, is the decision resolved democratically, or what?

Part of me wants to suggest that the Cultist Mafia could still PM the names (but no coherent discussion) of the people whom they think should be targeted by the Mafia to die. But then there would have to be some sort of game mechanic for the Mafia to disregard certain Mafia voters when they determine that such players are Cultists. And I'm not sure exactly how that would work. So maybe your idea of cutting the Mafia Cultists out of the discussion altogether is the best. I guess I would not really be unhappy with the idea that Cultist Mafia lose their special power altogether.

@shlimazel, on 16 September 2012 - 01:59 PM, said in Mafia game proposal:

This game seems like it would strongly benefit from a large number of players, for more room to maneuver.

Indeed.

This post has been edited by Techerakh : 16 September 2012 - 03:03 PM

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This is probably a step in the right direction. I haven't had the experience in playing in a GTW game with every-other-turn abilities, so I don't know how well it works.

I think there have been roles like that in the past, but to confirm it I'd have to read back through all the topics on the subject. We need a master list of all the roles people have used in GTW or something. It would certainly address the randomness issue (which, honestly, I wasn't totally happy with for the cultists-the Cthulhu thing was fine though because part of the point is that the attack won't always succeed, and every other turn abilities for the Cthulhu would simultaneously make them overpowered and too vulnerable) and it would be much easier to keep track of.

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Let me ask more about the game mechanics, since I've only ever Godded IRC games—is there a chief mafioso or something who gives the final kill order to the game master, or how does it work? If, for instance, several mafia simply cannot agree on whom to kill, is the decision resolved democratically, or what?

It's usually a process of discussion during the turn, where the mafia players work out who their best target is via PM amongst one another, come to a conclusion, then one of them (someone whose choice everyone present agrees with, probably) sends a message to the host of the game letting the host know who they want to nightkill. If they can't make up their minds in time and they don't send a message in, they don't get a kill that night, so it's to their best interests to come to a compromise and get a message in.

More than one message for a kill target would probably be resolved as the host thought best, for me I would probably say they didn't get a nightkill. The Cthulhu doesn't have to worry about discussing things though of course, they just have to pick a target.

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Part of me wants to suggest that the Cultist Mafia could still PM the names (but no coherent discussion) of the people whom they think should be targeted by the Mafia to die. But then there would have to be some sort of game mechanic for the Mafia to disregard certain Mafia voters when they determine that such players are Cultists. And I'm not sure exactly how that would work. So maybe your idea of cutting the Mafia Cultists out of the discussion altogether is the best. I guess I would not really be unhappy with the idea that Cultist Mafia lose their special power altogether.

It would be interesting for them to have it, but it is looking like it might be too complicated for them to do so. It might be for the best.

As a general notice to anyone else reading this topic, we still need at least one more player before we can start playing, but two more players would make the game more enjoyable for everyone. Please consider giving it a try.

This post has been edited by Shlimazel : 16 September 2012 - 03:35 PM

@shlimazel, on 16 September 2012 - 02:28 PM, said in Mafia game proposal:

Also, double posting because I want to make sure that this is seen and understood: If we play this game, I would ask that nobody edit their posts, including ninja editing. Actually, ESPECIALLY ninja editing, because it's an abuse of your moderator privileges. Editing a post and making it look like it's the original post enables you to protect yourself from slip ups you may have made in the actual original that would give other people clues without alerting other people to the fact that you changed something you said.

In other words, ninja editing is cheating , almost as bad as posting screenshots of private correspondences, and if we play this game, I'm not going to be too keen on people who are cheating. I'm also not going to be too keen on seeing people's posts getting deleted during the game. You may be moderators, but you've agreed to come into the topic and play a game with everyone else, people who aren't moderators for the most part, fair and square, obeying the same constrictions as everyone else. If we play the game, as the host and as someone who is without the same moderation abilities you have and therefore unable to constrain you, I'm trusting you to do exactly that. Do not abuse my trust in you, please. Thank you.

@jacabyte, on 16 September 2012 - 02:45 PM, said in Mafia game proposal:

This includes editing people's posts and subsequently deleting them into order to coerce them into leaving the game.

I'm looking at you mrxak.

...what?!?

The only one who has ever deleted a post in a GTW game was Mackilroy, and he was the host. I have certainly never edited a post other than my own. I have never edited my posts after somebody else has posted after me, though it's quite possible I've edited my own posts while somebody else was in the process of writing their post but hadn't posted yet. If mine is the last post in the topic, you can just go ahead and assume it's a work in progress, because I often have things to add, grammar to fix, or who knows what, and I'm certainly not going to quadruple post just to add a sentence or fix a word.

Did I miss some huge scandal along the way, or are you guys actually on something?

Pretty sure that was the reason Croc dropped out of GTW 37, which cost us the game.

@croc, on 08 June 2012 - 02:15 PM, said in GTW Game 37:

What is the point of posting if my posts just get edited? Why don't you guys just write dialog for me? Enjoy your bastardized forums version of a great game guys, I'm not gonna play the whole "haha look i'm a moderator your post was dumb ZAP ZAP" game. PEACE

PS I AM INNOCENT

I had a screenshot of this, but I can't find it. Suffice it to say I saw what happened to croc with my own eyes, that's good enough for me.

Pretty sure that was Mack, and anyway I think he apologized and said never again

All i know is that some people's posts got deleted, some people's posts got edited, and some ninja editing has happened. I don't know who did which, and I didn't post that to point fingers at people. I'm just concerned about ninja editing, it's something that has been done and could be used to change parts of a post that make a player look better, but without raising suspicion the way someone would with a huge EDITED banner. This game would be more complicated than a normal one; with three teams any clue the innocents can get is vital, which is the reason for the no-editing rule, and ninja editing could mess things up.

As usual, i got a bit overdramatic in my last post. I'm not attacking you or mack, mrxak. If you say all you edit in a ninja edit is grammar and misspellings, I'm perfectly prepared to believe you. It would probably be for the best though, during gtw anyway, if you add something to your post to indicate you'd edited it, so everyone knows you did. Except for in this game i've proposed, where I would really prefer no one edited their posts at all for stated reasons particular to this game. Good reason to be double careful when posting, which people should be anyway.

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