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I've been having an issue of how to create a realistic and viable monetary/economic system for my TC for a while now. Let's say $1 equals a credit. Realistically, we can expect a single dreadnaught at about 1-5 billion credits. Assuming the average income was about 75k...the top 10th percent of the population would make $225,000, using the distributions for the US today. How would a normal civilian afford it? There's no real way. Several options are:
a) Once the player reachs a certain rank in the military of his choice, he gains 'command' of a new vessel essentially giving him expensive vessels for free.
Have a system of the government giving out billion dollar rewards. (their economy would be in the ten's of quadrillion's.)
c) Somehow figure out a way to bend the laws of mathematics to my purposes. (I can wish, can't I? :-D)
Any help here?
------------------ (url="http://"http://www.zhouj.net/days/")Days of Glory(/url), Upcoming TC for EV: Nova
(This message has been edited by zhouj (edited 02-09-2004).)
well, i somehow don't think the gaming engine will work with those numbers, so i suggest making credits worth more (say $100) so that you can better handle the numbers, I also like the idea of granted ships, or governmet rewards. (the bountys on fugitves should be higher anyways) also, bear in mind that with all of that technology, the economy will have changed (a dreadnaught probably wouldn't cost that much, unless it was cutting-edge, which i am assuming it is not) example: things like the RAGE and Starbridge should be significantly more expensive than older designs; abomination, IDA, and pegasii. even if they are similar in power or strength.
------------------ A warrior can shape himself to suit anything in the universe. A master can shape the universe to suit himself.
I like A. That's how it works in 2478. When the player reaches command ranks (Lt. Commander, Commander, Post Captain, Commodore, Admiral) he is given ships with random names.
As for making it available to the common player, you really have to show a clear difference between the Battlecruiser and the shuttlecraft. Think about it realistically. People don't go around in yachts pirating the seas, do they? Most people pilot small craft.
In mine, the idea is that ships are mass manufactured. They are nowhere near as powerful as the common ships. Some of the more basic ones are (will be, is more the operating word) no more than engines, a crew pod stuck on the side and a bunch of cargo held inside forcefields.
Remember, also, that it's going to be the rich flying the ships. You have to make it so that there is a possibliity to upgrade. A player is going to start out in a small craft, maybe worth 10000 at purchase. This is fine but realistically, there is no way that player is going to get into a mega-yacht warship. The person who buys a $10,000 motorboat isn't going to be able to afford the 200' yacht by ferrying passengers across the bay.
The solutions: Flavour the economy so that it is apparent that everything is so mass produced and so efficient that these things really only do cost 20 million or so for super dreadnoughts or provide a true difference in strength and performance between the military, the uppers, the middles and the lowers. I hate to say it, but the true shuttlecraft I would put in a TC would be basically a spacesuit in a box with engines stuck on it. In order to provide true definition between the Dreadnought and the Motorboat, you must make the motorboat puny in comparison.
edit: Oh, and by the way, I believe the game supports players having up to around $2 in on-hand cash. Lemme test. I know due to some obscure bug from some crazy idea I was testing, my current player has $1689 million though. ------------------ When viewing a Terrapin for the first time, I realized that anything flies-if you throw it hard enough!
(This message has been edited by Zzap212 (edited 02-09-2004).)
Quote
Originally posted by Cunjo: **well, i somehow don't think the gaming engine will work with those numbers, so i suggest making credits worth more (say $100) so that you can better handle the numbers, I also like the idea of granted ships, or governmet rewards. (the bountys on fugitves should be higher anyways) also, bear in mind that with all of that technology, the economy will have changed (a dreadnaught probably wouldn't cost that much, unless it was cutting-edge, which i am assuming it is not) example: things like the RAGE and Starbridge should be significantly more expensive than older designs; abomination, IDA, and pegasii. even if they are similar in power or strength.
**
The figure I quoted is indeed a top of the line dreadnaught. I'm fairly certain the gaming engine can handle prices in the missions of dollars.
Originally posted by Zzap212: **I like A. That's how it works in 2478. When the player reaches command ranks (Lt. Commander, Commander, Post Captain, Commodore, Admiral) he is given ships with random names.
edit: Oh, and by the way, I believe the game supports players having up to around $2 in on-hand cash. Lemme test. I know due to some obscure bug from some crazy idea I was testing, my current player has $1689 million though.**
Mass production is only truly effective at reducing costs at huge amounts of production and it won't reduce it from 5 billion to 20 million. Most governments don't base their fleets on massive dreadnoughts...
It was just an example. An realistically, this is some odd centuries in the future. Maybe after all that time, costs will become that low? I mean, after the businesses pay for themselves and all...
But you're absolutely right. Most governments don't (or wouldn't: this is fiction, remember) base their fleets on the capital ships. A prime example is the US Navy, which choked at $2 bill per Seawolf class attack sub.
Our fleet consists primarily of medium class attack subs and surface destroyers, cruisers and frigates. This is supplemented by the huge carriers and the missile boats (the Ohio nuke subs).
Which is why the few dreadnoughts we do have are state-of-the-art.
------------------ When viewing a Terrapin for the first time, I realized that anything flies-if you throw it hard enough!
Originally posted by Zzap212: **It was just an example. An realistically, this is some odd centuries in the future. Maybe after all that time, costs will become that low? I mean, after the businesses pay for themselves and all...
I'm just saying that mass production wouldn't modify the price enough. We actually don't have dreadnoughts or battleships. They're an antiquated part of warfare. But you're right, when we did have the battleships in service, they were state-of-the-art in technology. I do think most blue-water navies capable of power projection do bases their fleets on capital ships. Destroyers and cruisers are indeed capital ships. The thing is, from before mass production to modern day, fleets have always been very expensive. Anything that is top of the line is expensive. Not to mention that I didn't even include 500 years of inflation.
Well, Navies being a thing I am an expert on, allow me to put some ideas out:
In the 19th century, long-odd battles were one with the knowledge that a superior ships captured would fetch a fair price. The concept of prize money kept the British Navy on its toes. This is why you commonly had 40-80 gun ships taking on more powerful Line-of-the-Battle ships. The people knew the government would by the ship. And the economy was the same back then. A person might commonly make 1-20 shillings a day, where ships cost 4000 (small brig) to 10000 (100-Gun Battleship) pounds apiece.
And BTW, techincally, we do have the big dreadnoughts. The Carriers are the dreadnoughts of the future, but yes, when we did have battleships, they were state of the art.
The concept is how many merchant sailors are their today? Another great concept would be corporations putting sucessful pilots in command of larger ships and extracting a fee. Also, ship rentals and loans. Can't forget the idea that you don't necessarily have to own the ships. (of course, I in all of my cruelness will use this and inflict terrible missions that strip you of all of your leasing power due to some sort of accident or something...)
Originally posted by Zzap212: **Well, Navies being a thing I am an expert on, allow me to put some ideas out:
I quote this (url="http://"http://www.wwnorton.com/pob/vol1i.htm")source(/url) which states the cost of a 74-gun ship at 43,280 pounds in 1789. And a 38-gun one at about 20,000 pounds. Given that a worker makes about 18-365 pounds a year. Of course, this is all a flawed comparison. The socioeconomic gap has shrunk.
By definition, Webster in 1913 said that a dreadnought was a battleship guns of all the same caliber. Now Webster states it to be a British battleship. As does my book on naval history. So by definition, a dreadnought is a type of battleship. Therefore our carriers are not dreadnoughts. Figuratively, they could said to be such but technically, they can't be.
The idea about being able to lease ships is rather interesting though.
Uhhh, zhouj, next time, please don't be so rushy as your source hyperlink is nothing to look at...
------------------
Originally posted by kauthor: **Uhhh, zhouj, next time, please don't be so rushy as your source hyperlink is nothing to look at...
It's been fixed. UBB code was messed up before. The pertinent information is located in the Frigates section.
Originally posted by zhouj I've been having an issue of how to create a realistic and viable monetary/economic system for my TC for a while now. Let's say $1 equals a credit. Realistically, we can expect a single dreadnaught at about 1-5 billion credits. Assuming the average income was about 75k...the top 10th percent of the population would make $225,000, using the distributions for the US today. How would a normal civilian afford it? There's no real way.
Just like it is today. The average citizen can't afford a dreadnought. Heck, Average Joe can't afford a top of the line automobile, let alone a military vessel. I wouldn't worry too much about the particulars of pricing, as long as there is an adequate difference between a 'great' ship and an 'average' one. (Even still, there's nothing wrong with intentionally making some ship's that are overpriced for their capabilities, and vice-versa).
That aside, you don't need to use the 'credit' at all. You can call the monetary unit whatever you like, and determine its relative value.
Originally posted by slouch: **Just like it is today. The average citizen can't afford a dreadnought. Heck, Average Joe can't afford a top of the line automobile, let alone a military vessel. I wouldn't worry too much about the particulars of pricing, as long as there is an adequate difference between a 'great' ship and an 'average' one. (Even still, there's nothing wrong with intentionally making some ship's that are overpriced for their capabilities, and vice-versa).
The thing is: Bill Gates can afford a nice Carrier Battle Group if he wanted to and many others could afford a carrier. But then there's the Copernicus Princple, stating that you're most likely not special. But the whole idea of having the player be a hero technically violates that already. My primary concern here is realism: I've already cut corners for other stuff for the sake of implementation and playability. On the last thing, I mentioned credit because it's the monetary unit used in Nova. Does it sound culture-specific? And one last thing, which of the options do you think to be the best.
I think option A works the best, for military vessels. Even if Bill Gates can afford an aircraft carrier, it doesn't mean he would be permitted to buy one. Depends on the characteristics of your governments.
Well, by the time the player has access to those ships, he will be part of the respective military so there's no issue of civilians gaining access to military hardware legally. Gaining military hardware illegally is what the pirates and Syndicates are for...
Zhouj, I've put a lot of thought into this same direction. The way we're doing it in SS is supposed to be an extension of the modern economy. Some key points (with 1 cred = $1):
1. Each and every ship captain is independantly wealthy. Even if you own the equivalent of a shuttlecraft, you are a very rich person compared to the average. 2. Small ships are mass-manufactured. This brings the shuttlecraft equivalent (the Caravel) down to the 1-2 million credit range. This is based on the purchase price of an equivalent ship in the approx. 200 foot range. (Not a luxury ship-we're talking stripped down barge here, which is about all a Caravel is, stock). 3. You can't just buy the big military warships. You have to either pirate and capture one (amazing, and Governments HATE you if you do it- prepare to die), or be put in command of one. 4. There's a very good chance you will never buy a new ship- too expensive! Quite likely you will start with a ship and upgrade it continuously. 5. Continuous Upgrading- This is important because things are expensive! You are not going to buy a 5000 cred laser cannon. You aren't going to buy anything suitable for space combat for 5000! Weapons capable of taking out ships are awsome weapons. You aren't strapping pistols onto your ship. You aren't even strapping 50cal machine guns on. You are strapping on Vulcan Rotary Cannons! These may be more mass-manufactured, but the simple problem is that weapons are precision devices, and you can't get them cheap. The same goes for things like the engines/shield systems/turn thrusters/whatever on your ship. Thesse are expensive, precision, and high-quality units. You are going to have to scrape to come up with the money to get new ones. 6. Compounding all these natural difficulties, you have to maintain your ship (expensive!) AND usually pay taxes! Damn! 7. There are ways to offset all this, of course. As I have explained, space ships are an expensive commodity. People are going to have to pay you, and pay you well, to use your ship. Commodity trading is much more lucrative (increased commodity prices, for instance). You can make money hand over fist if you don't mind being bored. 8. Pirates are dangerous! These people are trained, well equipped, and experienced. Bounty hunting pays well. 9. Pirates are rare! These people are trained, well equipped, and experienced. Bounty hunting work is hard to get, and you must be good to do it. 10. There are economic options available to you. Rental equipment, for one. Loans, for another. You could entirely finance your new ship, but you better be ready to make the payments. 11. Not everything is expensive. Software outfits, like auto refuellers, are insignificant cost wise- maybe a hundred credits. That's 1/5 the cost of a day's fuel in SS. It doesn't come standard, but you aren't going to have to pay much to add it. Bullets for common weapons are cheap, as are railgun slugs. Missiles are not cheap. Missile launchers are- it's a rack, with computer interfaces so that the missiles' guidance systems can be primed and loaded. Even internal-magazine launchers (most launchers) are pretty cheap- it's basically a conveyor belt. Those have been made for a long, long time. And so on and so forth.
Now, this wasn't meant as a plug, but simply as an insight into one method of doing things. My point is that you don't have to make too many concessions- economy wise, you can actually be pretty accurate if you want, AND keep the plug fun. Nova uses a 32-bit integer for money. I think it might even be unsigned (no negative money), so that it can hold 4 billion+, so even that expensive dreadnought's price tag can be handled, at least in the player's scope without worrying about limits. Even if it is signed, the game can handle 2 billion+ credits, positive or negative. Not bad.
------------------ ~Charlie Sephil Saga Homepage: (url="http://"http://www.cwssoftware.com")www.cwssoftware.com(/url)
I quote this source which states the cost of a 74-gun ship at 43,280 pounds in 1789. And a 38-gun one at about 20,000 pounds. Given that a worker makes about 18-365 pounds a year. Of course, this is all a flawed comparison. The socioeconomic gap has shrunk.
The idea about being able to lease ships is rather interesting though
Sorry. I meant to post 100,000 pounds for the large ships (we're talking 4-decker 136-150 gun Santasima Trinidad's here, though).
Yes, by definition, the battleship is the only kind of dreadnought, but by comparison, the Carrier is MORE than a dreadnought.
Yes, the ability to lease ships adds interesting aspects to the game. For example, some missions might not be made available because you don't own your own ship. Others might be made available because you owe money on your loan or something. You never know.
And to second what Massamune just said here, I'll say it again. You need to really make it apparent that the military ships are clean cut Enterprise D-kept ships with state of the art technology and the shuttlecrafts and freighters are more like crew habitats stuck on the side of engines than actual hulls and engines and life support.
If you want a true economy, then there simply can't be "Starbridges" and "Valkryies" available to the player at the comparative prices in the standard game. The comparative price (Carrier being 2 billion standard) is about 10,000,000 per starbridge, versus 600,000 in the standard. This give an idea of how "off" you can see the standard game being in terms of realistic economics. That's about 200% more expensive for the state-of-the-art ship from the state-of-the-art civilian ship.
While stretching the value of the credit may seem like a good idea, you have to remember that these players get rich on mining asteroids and such in the game. It's very unrealistic that with all of the prospectors, there would be any demand for these at all. Asteroids should be rare and only the largest ones, which rarely appear, should have "motherloads" in them.
Realistically, you can't expect space to be populated with spacegoing people. Either your economy is at the point where ships are so commonplace that everybody owns them, they are extremely cheap and extremely inferior to the military's ships, or you can go in so far as to make it apparent that the majority of capatains use used ships, leased ships and/or loaned ships. Degrade the performance a lot from stock.
So quite simply, the best solution is to make a wide range of ships, commonplace being bare-bones strip-down barges (the shuttlecraft, the caravel (as mentioned by massamune), the bulk freighter (being held together with forcefields), the panzer), somewhat uncommon being the newer ships, commonly piloted by loaners or leasers, renters or commercial pilots (mandatory passenger missions???) and the upper class being the bounty hunters, the CEO's, the richy richs and the inheriters. The military being somewhat common, but so superior that nothing really puts up much opposition.
Originally posted by Masamune: **Zhouj, I've put a lot of thought into this same direction. The way we're doing it in SS is supposed to be an extension of the modern economy. Some key points (with 1 cred = $1):
Hmm. Interesting ideas. I think there's an issue of economic scale here. An interstellar empire would have a vastly larger demand than a single system. When there's demand, there always be a company there willing to fill it with supply. At least in a modern market economy. I think I can say that weapons are indeed mass-produced by then but not dreadnaughts. Every year brings advancedments in the precision of automated machinery. With civilian technology, you could simply explain that they were passed down after they were obsolete for military use. By that time, producing them would be like us mass-producing most things from before the 70's.
As for the financing and rental ideas, I like them. Would you mind sending me the money-checking idea if you manage to fix the last bug you mentioned? A plethora of options opens up the instant I can check if the player has insufficient funds to make a payment.
Originally posted by Zzap212: **Sorry. I meant to post 100,000 pounds for the large ships (we're talking 4-decker 136-150 gun Santasima Trinidad's here, though).
You said technically before you said that carriers were dreadnoughts and so I interpreted it as meaning by the exact definition. I really don't think can compare a dreadnought to a carrier or vice versa. At the time, the dreadnought was at least equally as impressive as a carrier is now. They are warships made for two different eras of warfare. The only reason that a carrier would defeat a dreadnought of the past would be because of improved technology and superior tactics. I'd be interested to find how the two compared in terms of cost as percentage of GDP or military budget.
Of course it will be apparent. The only reason players can kill Federation Carriers with a Starbridge is because the AI is not very intelligent. I will likely widen the gap between the 'normal' ships and the very high-end ones.
Yes, there can. A Federation Carrier is only 12 million stock. The value of the credit is far greater than that of the dollar or the prices of all ships have scaled downward.
The issue of asteroid mining is easily solved, both by making it difficult, or simply scaling the price of goods with the value of the credit. A ton of metal may be worth 300 credits in a scenario where a dollar = a credit but in a scaled one, it may only be worth 3.
No one has an idea what sociological and economic changes will take place in the next 500 years. That's the difficulty here. Maybe space will be filled with the rich and powerful or maybe half the population will have access to a starship. Civilian ships will always be inferior to military ones simply because the civilian weapons and ships are made probably by government contractors and the military would never allow civilians to have comparable weaponry legally.
I think the solution to this issue in the plugin will combine much of the suggestions. I think I will implement a system where you are indeed only allowed to buy a new ship if you have a commission and certain rank. (ie, you can only command a dreadnaught if you're an admiral or higher.) but since the military can only supply stock ships, if you wish to upgrade your ship, you must own it and hence you must buy it. As for financing such a purchase, I'll try implementing a banking system or loan/rental system, and then increase the payouts from the government. I mean, if a government has a military budget in the trillions of dollars, I'm sure they'd reward great heroes and saviors of their government with awards and grants ranging up to billions that allow them to upgrade/buy their ship especially since it saves the government the money of constructing it, paying for supplies, and the crew of that ship.