# "Hyperspace" and other unrealistic stuff

OK, here's My Idea For A Good "Faster-Than-Light" Drive:

The ship has a device that shifts it into another dimension where time runs at a different speed. The ship moves at the exact same speed as before, but it takes less time to get to its destination. The device then moves the ship back into normal space.

Of course, this is assuming that there was such a dimension and that there was technology to get there and back. Whaddya think?

BTW, anyone know of a way to implement this kind of thing into EVO? I'd just have it represented by the ship flashing to a different color (white?) and then appearing in the other system. It wouldn't have the stopping or speed-up, it'd just stay at the same speed and appear at the same speed. Or would that take a major re-write of the engine?

Also, an Idea For Artificial Gravity:

A small (pinpoint-sized) black hole is captured in a seamless box which is molecularly condensed so that it cannot be condensed further (and thus dragged into the black hole). It is then fastened on the bottom of the ship. Would this work, assuming again that the technology was good enough to capture and hold a black hole? Or perhaps just a very, very dense chunk of the aforementioned metal that would generate it's own gravity field strong enough to use for artificial gravity?

Divals

------------------
"Silly rabbit, Kicks are for trids!" - ME
(url="http://"mailto:micahg@microserve.net")mailto:micahg@microserve.net(/url)micahg@microserve.net

Quote

Originally posted by Divals the Conqueror:
**OK, here's My Idea For A Good "Faster-Than-Light" Drive:

The ship has a device that shifts it into another dimension where time runs at a different speed. The ship moves at the exact same speed as before, but it takes less time to get to its destination. The device then moves the ship back into normal space.

Of course, this is assuming that there was such a dimension and that there was technology to get there and back. Whaddya think?

BTW, anyone know of a way to implement this kind of thing into EVO? I'd just have it represented by the ship flashing to a different color (white?) and then appearing in the other system. It wouldn't have the stopping or speed-up, it'd just stay at the same speed and appear at the same speed. Or would that take a major re-write of the engine?

Also, an Idea For Artificial Gravity:

A small (pinpoint-sized) black hole is captured in a seamless box which is molecularly condensed so that it cannot be condensed further (and thus dragged into the black hole). It is then fastened on the bottom of the ship. Would this work, assuming again that the technology was good enough to capture and hold a black hole? Or perhaps just a very, very dense chunk of the aforementioned metal that would generate it's own gravity field strong enough to use for artificial gravity?

Divals

**

Actually I don't believe there's anything wrong with the hyperdrive concept. Unless I'm mistaken, isn't hyperdrive where a ship travels from point A to B by folding space so that the two points are right next to each other? (Ya know, like how you draw two points on opposite sides of a sheet of paper then fold the paper so that the two points meet).

------------------

That's another theory. But the one I was replacing is the faster-than-light drives which are so popular in sci-fi nowadays. The 'Jump Space' (so called because the ship 'jumps' into it) I came up with here is used in The Star Gurns. (Also, when a ship comes back into regular space, they 'drop out' of Jump Space. Just a bit of pointless terminology there for ya, don't say I never did nothin' for ya :p)

Divals

------------------
"Silly rabbit, Kicks are for trids!" - ME
(url="http://"mailto:micahg@microserve.net")mailto:micahg@microserve.net(/url)micahg@microserve.net

Just a bit of sci-fi trivia for you: Neutronium (sp?) is a famous mythical dense substance, so dense in fact that coating a few micrometers thick would simulate the gravitational pull of earth, of course then any large ship would weigh 3x10^12 (or some other ridiculous number) tonnes so you'd have to think up some massively powerful propulsion system as well as structural components that could bear the load during acceleration, or you could just not point those out.

If you want you could my plugs current explanation of artificial gravity. I'm (loosely) using current scientific theory when I say that gravity can be pulled (increased) towards our dimension and away from the other 3(?) dimensions it's thought to reside in. I don't know I saw it on the science news a while back .

Oh yeah, or you could say something about a combined field theory (look it up yourself ) being put into practice.

That's all I can think of at the moment.

------------------
"I don't know what weapons World War Three will be fought with, but World War four will be fought with sticks and stones."
-- Albert Einstein

(This message has been edited by Al Coholic (edited 08-09-2002).)

Gravity is a concequence of motion and geometry (remember the old marble-on-a-rubber-sheet-with-a-grid-marked-upon-it trick? Or the balloon in a car turning a corner trick...)

Any object with sufficiently mass creates noticable gravity, so possibly artificial gravity is created using some concequence or another of e=mc(2) where a large ammount of energy is used to mimic mass, therefore imparting gravity (and probably 'inertial dampening' and similar systems). You could easily use a black hole as a generator (in a solar-system sized ship, of course) but a black hole small enough to create only 1G would probably be too small to create under controlled conditions or capture enough of in the wild to make the process feasable. If the gravity of such a set-up didn't kill you then the electromagnetics would distort your computers severly. 'Course it'd probably be easier to make a ship that rotates.

Visual conceqences of FTL travel would probably be most like the ones in "Star Wars", as since space is folding, the stars would either seem to stretch out greatly or large portions of them would dissapear, to be replaced by the ones where you are going, if that makes any sense. Plus, to actually 'jump' into another dimension, I think you need more power than the Planack number (like 1*10 to the 32 power in kilowats I think, not sure) to actually cause it to happen.

Just my 2Ë˜, not sure if any of this is relevant or useful.

Rik

------------------
Drinking causes hangovers.
I will uphold Ma'at.
Shemsu Hor.

In some Scientific American , it has an article about how if you bombard a superconducting magnet made out of some kind of metal, it will make weak incoherent gravity waves. In theory.

------------------
Always say no to Concrete Donkeys.

Bombard it with what? And how inchoherant would they be?

Not sure if incoherant is the right word here.

------------------
Drinking causes hangovers.
I will uphold Ma'at.
Shemsu Hor.

Yea, I just read that little snippet, and the idea is that a superconducting magnet bombarded with EMS energy will produce gravitional waves at an accelerated rate - mabey. We will see. I wish I could remember more, but it is an issue or two old, so I couldn't really tell you. Maybe ill look for the article.
Joe

------------------
"Life is tough, but it's even tougher when you're stupid."
-John Wayne

I like Tachyonic travel as a good explanation for FTL.

Quote

When Albert Einstein proposed the Special Theory of Relativity, he saw the speed of light as a limiting velocity such that transmission of energy from point to point in space-time at superlight velocities is impossible: "velocities greater then that of light, have no possibility of existence." This is because the mass of a particle would become infinitely large as its velocity approaches c. The speed of light was therefore an inviolable barrier for particle velocities. In the second half of the century, however, physicists realized that Einstein's conclusion was overdrawn. Although his equations prohibited the acceleration of particles traveling at sublight velocities to or beyond c, they did not apply to the existence of particles whose velocities are always greater than or equal to c. After all, photons and neutrinos both travel with a velocity equal to c without ever having been accelerated from a sublight speed to c.

Thus, by converting or transforming a normal particle into its tachyonic counterpart, a starship could go from sublight speeds, to superlight speeds without having to accelerate. Thereby allowing spacecraft to travel the vast distances between stars in a matter of days.

------------------
"English needs to be fixed!!" -My dad

(This message has been edited by Skyfox (edited 08-09-2002).)

Quote

Originally posted by Divals the Conqueror:
OK, here's My Idea For A Good "Faster-Than-Light" Drive:

Sir, you just descibed Babylon 5.
-david-

------------------
(url="http://"http://meowx.modenstudios.com")Meowx Design Studios(/url) | (url="http://"http://modenstudios.com")Moden Studios(/url) | (url="http://"http://modenstudios.com/quantumire")The Quantumire Legacy(/url) | (url="http://"http://modenstudios.com/magma")MAGMA(/url) | (url="http://"http://modenstudios.com/texturevault")The Texture Vault(/url) | (url="http://"http://modenstudios.com/evodev")RF3(/url) | (url="http://"http://modenstudios.com/shipyard")Meowx Shipyards(/url) | (url="http://"http://modenstudios.com/monkeyboy")Monkeyboy(/url)

Quote

Originally posted by Skyfox:
**I like Tachyonic travel as a good explanation for FTL.

**

BAM! I did NOT see this one coming....

I step aside in the face of superior intelect...

Rik

------------------
Drinking causes hangovers.
I will uphold Ma'at.
Shemsu Hor.

Quote

Originally posted by Al Coholic:
**Just a bit of sci-fi trivia for you: Neutronium (sp?) is a famous mythical dense substance, so dense in fact that coating a few micrometers thick would simulate the gravitational pull of earth, of course then any large ship would weigh 3x10^12 (or some other ridiculous number) tonnes so you'd have to think up some massively powerful propulsion system as well as structural components that could bear the load during acceleration, or you could just not point those out.

**

You are somewhat incorrect, it is not a mythical substance at all. Although it is doubtful that the matter would retain it's dense state, Neutronium is the term for the highly compressed type of matter that composes neutron stars. The gravitational pull of a neutron star is such that all of its component matter is pulled to the point where its molecular and atomic structure essentially shatters. Rather than being composed of tradtional atomic matter, neutronium is just a conglomeration of very tighly packed, independent neutrons.

Quote

Originally posted by kulong:
**
Actually I don't believe there's anything wrong with the hyperdrive concept. Unless I'm mistaken, isn't hyperdrive where a ship travels from point A to B by folding space so that the two points are right next to each other? (Ya know, like how you draw two points on opposite sides of a sheet of paper then fold the paper so that the two points meet).
**

No, that's warp drive (Gene Roddenberry wasn't far off, it can be acheived with incredible gravitational forces). Hyperspatial drive assumes that our universe is more than it appears to be. Although it is likely that other dimensions exist in this universe, it has been theorized that they are coiled up and are only apparent in quantum level interactions. However, Hyperspatial drives rely on another theory. Much as a two dimensional surface may be the boundary for a three dimensional sphere, it is possible that our entire four-dimensional (3-space, 1-time) universe is the boundary for a five dimensional hyperuniverse. In this hyperuniverse, one would be able to access any time-space point in our universe that was desired. Suffice it to say that this form of travel would require an astronomical amount of energy, however, it will no doubt be attempted at some time in the future.

------------------
Pretty much, Apple and Dell are the only ones in this industry making money. They make it by being Wal-Mart. We make it by innovation.
-Steve Jobs

Quote

Originally posted by Skyfox: **
I like Tachyonic travel as a good explanation for FTL.
**

I say a lot of this at the risk of sounding like a geek... Ok, so I am a geek, but not so much as I fear that I'll come across.

For those of you who don't know, tachyons are imaginary (at least not "discovered") particles that travel faster than light and are supposed to answer some of the mysteries of the universe. Isn't that great? If we don't understand why something does what it does, we just invent a new particle that instantly explains it. Well, that's at least kinda true. I started reading a book on string theory, but it eventually got too heavy for me.

Quote

Originally posted by kulong: **
Actually I don't believe there's anything wrong with the hyperdrive concept. Unless I'm mistaken, isn't hyperdrive where a ship travels from point A to B by folding space so that the two points are right next to each other? (Ya know, like how you draw two points on opposite sides of a sheet of paper then fold the paper so that the two points meet).**

That's a very popular method of hyperlight travel (used by, but not limited to: Macross/Robotech) that's usually referred to as a "space fold" device. Heck, I've used it in a story once. It's a great plot device and is one that's easy for most people to visualize.

Quote

Originally posted by Quantum Transcendence:
No, that's warp drive (Gene Roddenberry wasn't far off, it can be acheived with incredible gravitational forces).

Actually, Quantum (who was referring to the space fold device), warp drive is achieved through the use of a warp field that reduces the apparent mass of the spacegoing object until the object surpasses c (as in e=mcc). Thus, the energy requirements to achieve that speed never reaches infinity (that's at least according to the Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual). The only reason why I know that is because I looked it up for use in a similar argument about the "impossibilities" of hyperlight travel.

Quote

Originally posted by Quantum Transcendence: **
Hyperspatial drive assumes that our universe is more than it appears to be. Although it is likely that other dimensions exist in this universe, it has been theorized that they are coiled up and are only apparent in quantum level interactions. However, Hyperspatial drives rely on another theory. Much as a two dimensional surface may be the boundary for a three dimensional sphere, it is possible that our entire four-dimensional (3-space, 1-time) universe is the boundary for a five dimensional hyperuniverse. In this hyperuniverse, one would be able to access any time-space point in our universe that was desired. Suffice it to say that this form of travel would require an astronomical amount of energy, however, it will no doubt be attempted at some time in the future.
**

Um, oops. Read my above reply. Oh, and if I remember correctly, string theory is supposed to indicate like 20 dimensions.

For those of you who are interested, check out (url="http://"http://superstringtheory.com/")http://superstringtheory.com/(/url) . It isn't as good as the book I read (I can't remember the title, and the library's closed right now. If any of you really want to know the title, I can go and check it out tomorrow).

Matrix

Matrix

------------------
"Nothing is fool-proof to a sufficiently talented fool."

For artificial gravity, you can just pretend that gravitons have been discovered & emit them with a superultratechnonanomagnetowhachamacallit & guide them in one direction using the electromagnetic forces of an advancedpowerfulimprobablescififictionmachine.

Personally, I would not put a black hole on a spacecraft if my life depended on it, because something could easily go wrong & an entire solar system could be destroyed.

------------------
Get a life, a cyberspace life.

Quote

Originally posted by Colours:
**For artificial gravity, you can just pretend that gravitons have been discovered & emit them with a superultratechnonanomagnetowhachamacallit & guide them in one direction using the electromagnetic forces of an advancedpowerfulimprobablescififictionmachine.

Personally, I would not put a black hole on a spacecraft if my life depended on it, because something could easily go wrong & an entire solar system could be destroyed.

**

The May 2001 issue of Popular Science had an article on various theoretical methods of hyperlight propulsion. All of the theories of interstellar travel require stuff to happen by "undiscovered means," but it's interesting nonetheless.

The first is an "Induction Sail" which is propelled somewhat passively by concentrating interstellar radiation on one side of a sail, causing a differential of "radiation pressure" that propels the ship. Of course, the device that concentrates radiation is undiscovered.

The second is a "Differential Sail" which is more passive than the Induction Sail. It absorbs interstellar radiation on the leading side of the sail and reflects it on the trailing side. The collisions of radiation on the trailing propel the ship. Of course, I'm not a physics major, but even if radiation were absorbed on one side of the sail, wouldn't it counteract the collisions on the opposite side?

The third in the passive propulsion series is the "Diode Sail." This seems the most plausible to me, but what do I know. Basically, it acts as a one way mirror to radiation. Radiation approaching from behind is reflected, but radiation from the front passes through. Of course, all three of these sail ships depend on that space has a lot of background radiation.

The first in the series of "somehow" device propelled ships is the "Disjunction Drive." It is admittedly the most speculative of the four remaining ships. In the front of the ship, you somehow separate the source of a field from that which reacts to the field (the two are considered inseparable). Because a field in the rear is at full interaction, it creates a low "pressure" zone in front of the ship which propels the ship forward.

The next is the "Diametric Drive". It relies on the fact that we know that interactions between fields and matter produce force. Somehow you create a negative field (eg. gravitational, or electromagnetic) in the front and a positive field in the back. The interractions between the positive and negative fields propels the ship.

The "Bias Drive" is kinda poorly explained, but they say pretty much that they'd reduce normal gravity in front of the ship, and the ship moves.

The last is the "Induction Ring," and that was even more poorly explained than the Bias Drive. You build an induction ring of negative energy which warps space into sort of a bubble around the space craft. Supposed to be similar to the Bias Drive.

Just thought you guys would like to know what some of the weirdos at NASA are planning to do with our tax dollars as soon as someone supports them.

Matrix

------------------
"Nothing is fool-proof to a sufficiently talented fool."

Hate to say it but I never cared for quantum mechanics, especially and doubly especially for the whole 'quantum gravity' fiasco. It seems a whole lot more elegant to me to take e=mc(2) at it's word and assume that mass warps space and that energy is equivalent to a certain ammount of mass. To boil it all down it's all geometry: The more mass (or concentrated energy) the more space is distorted; than to assume that there is an undiscovered particle out there (gravitron, gravitino or whatever) that was pretty much made up to satisfy the Standard Model without any imperical evidence for it being there.

It is a known fact about the universe that mass will distort space, thereby causing gravity, just depending on if you're a relavatist or a mechanic on how exactly it's done.
Light is known to behave as a particle and a wave, therefore we have the photon.
Gravity is not known to behave as a particle, and without some form of FTL interaction between the 'gravitinos' or whatnot, how could they interact? Raises more hair there. It's a known capacity of particles to have spins, 'colors', 'flavors' etc, but not to have magic powers of attraction WITHOUT the use of a field (as in the case of magnatism) excepting without using geometry. And if we give the 'gravitinos' or whatever a field, we might as well go back to using geometry after all.

It seems easier to me to get energy to mimic the characteristics of mass than to make generators for 'gravitrons' or whatever.

FTL? If mass is known to distort space, and assuming that energy could mimic mass, it should be possible to make a device that could mimic certain properties of black holes that would in essence create a wormhole between two places that would be open long enough to transverse; and considering that it wouldn't have to be enormously long (or long at all, more of a cut or a slit than a tube) it would seem a lot like "folding space" or warping it or whatnot. Just a matter of technology.

I think that it's easier and more elegant to think of it as a relativistic problem than a quantum one, the math is all there, it makes sense, and for the most part it is for a video game that has little bearing on professional physics at all. And I've rambled, probably incoherantly and making little sense.

rik

------------------
Drinking causes hangovers.
I will uphold Ma'at.
Shemsu Hor.

You knew I couldn't stay away from this one....

Just wanted to point out a couple books, both by "double threats"; science fiction authors who are also established theoretical physicists -- Robert L. Forward's "Indistinquishable from Magic," and Charles Sheffield's "Dancing with Myself." Both go into a nice bit of detail on our current state of knowledge and some interesting projections that can be made from there.

I particularly like the Morris-Thorne wormhole, held open by the Casimir Effect....requiring at each mouth of the wormhole a perfectly smooth metallic sphere of roughly an A.U. in diameter.... The old Tipler time machine (infinately long hyperdense cylinder rotating at near light speed), particularly as described by Larry Niven, would also make an interesting hypergate...

------------------
"I know the stranger's name."
Turandot

Quote

Originally posted by Meowx Design:
**Sir, you just descibed Babylon 5.
-david-

**

I've never seen babylon 5.

Divals

------------------
"Silly rabbit, Kicks are for trids!" - ME
(url="http://"mailto:micahg@microserve.net")mailto:micahg@microserve.net(/url)micahg@microserve.net

As an interesting (and proof-of-geekdom) aside, a Spainish physicist wrote up a theoretical proof of the Star Trek-type "warp" model. The basic gist was that by expanding spacetime behind the ship and contracting it in front of the ship, the magnitude of expansion/contraction was proprtional to the absolute forward velocity of the ship, all the while the ship has a relative velocity of zero (the ship doesn't move, but spacetime does). However, the projected energy requirements were like the equivalent of 1 million suns. A search for "Miguel Alcubierre" or "Alcubierre warp drive" should lead you to the original paper.

------------------
"It's not my fault!" - Han Solo

I was about to post earlier, stating the only obvious use of these ideas is for the visual look of the hypergates (I do like the thought of a long spinning hyperdense cylinder a la Frank Tipler and Larry Niven, but the truly collosal smooth metal sphere required to create the Casimir effect and hold open the wormhole would also be an interesting graphic).

Then it occured to me Nova has unplumped options. The Drive Flare animation could be used for all sorts of strange effects surrounding a ship, from local space distortions to Warshawski Sails (re Honor Harrington). And the "unfolds to warp" could be, instead of an unfolding, some strange sort of warp animation. It might even be possible to do a "turns into a streak of light" a la Voyager et al (it all depends on when and how fast the animation plays, and if it overlaps with the on-screen portion of the hyperjump).

The physics are fun. Sometimes you can even get a good story out of them. Most times it devolves into a "what special effect does FTL have for this story?" Larry Niven's Blind Spot, the assymetric Wedge of David Weber, my own sleep-depriving Flicker Drive, the exit velocity and crew torpour in C.J. Cherryh's "Chanur" books... There is no reason we can't invest some EVN ships with odd lights and foldy bits and flickers and other interesting visual and auditory effects.

A last note. Violation of light speed is from the standpoint of physics a kind of time travel. It is not surprising, then, that almost all stable wormholes, naked singularities, and similar are by default as functional as time machines as they are erasers of distance. Anyone care to work causality violation into an EVN plug-in? ^_^

------------------
"I know the stranger's name."
Turandot