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I just read an article questioning whether today's 3D, networked games are any more fun than the ones from the 1980's at (url="http://"http://www.siggraph.org/publications/newsletter/v34n2/columns/gaming.html")http://www.siggraph.....ns/gaming.html(/url). I found it interesting, and am mentioning it here, because some of the observations made fit with my genereal feeling about the EV games.
EV is a really simple premise. Boiled down, it's more or less like playing a computer version of truth or dare. The misns tell you things to do, and you do them (if you can). This of course doesn't apply if you go rogue and kill everything in the game, but IMHO, playing that way is the most boring aspect of EV.
The graphics in the original EV weren't stunning. It's not 3D. It's not networked. Yet, we've all been addicted to it. I have yet to meet someone who, after playing EV for a short time, isn't hooked.
The success of EV relies on two factors: the simple interface and the ability to make plugins. Play a visually complex game like Boob Raider and when you're done, you're done. That's it. All those hours of watching Lara bounce across the screen are over. Play a game like EV, however, and you can start over and play a different way, leading to different missions. And if that gets boring, you can download or make a new plugin.
This simplicity is the same thing which makes Monopoly and Risk such favorite games. The rules are simple, but no two games are ever the same. In addition, everyone has slightly different rules they use, which alters the game play. I suppose in the case of Monopoly, you could say modifications to existing rules is kind of the same as making a plugin for EV.
That having been said, EV has some drawbacks. I've heard it mentioned before, but it's true: players reach a level of skill in the game and the game stops being fun. They have the toughest ship, can force planets to surrender, and have more money than God. At that point, they stop playing the game. The factor which leads to this is that the player improves while the game environment remains static. After all the misn strings have been followed, there's nothing left but the normal deliveries, or conquoring all the planets you can. Yes, you can make/download add on plugs or TCs, but the end result is the same. This drives many to start playing with making plugins, but to make a plugin removes the enjoyment of play: you know what will happen because you made the plug. What's the quote? "When Alexander looked and saw his empire, he wept, for there were no more lands to conquor."
There are no easy solutions to this "Alexander weeping" problem. One can make a complex and complicated universe, as many of use hope/suspect EVN will be, but the fact remains that eventually the player will run out of things to do. The only two long term solutions to this which I have thought of have been flatly shot down by the Ambrosia team, and for good reason.
The first is a multiplayer EV. While this would undoubtedly be a lot of fun, there are some difficulties in how to implement such a game. Problems with EVMP have been discussed at length in different areas, and I won't go into it other than to hilite: 1.) How would such a game handle time, as in "deliver this to X within y days." 2.) The need for a dedicated server 3.) How would plugins work with EVMP, if at all
The second solution is to make EV more of a simulation. Not an "I'm God and control the universe" kind of simulation, but one in which the gaming environment changes. Such a game would retain the misn and ability to have plugins, but the details in a plugin would change over time. Example: let's say you start the game a laserX causes 1 shield damage. The longer the game is played, the more changes to weapon strength would occur. Ever few game years you could sell your old laser for a newer, more powerful one. AI weaponry would also advance. Other things would change as well. Govts would collapse or become stricter, revolutions and insurrections would take place, etc. There are enough economic/biological models in existance that they can be adapted for use in such a game.
Misns would then be more vague. There would be missions triggered only if a government was restrictive, or missions available only in the case of a civil war. The details would also be variable, allowing a great deal of complexity based on simple inputs, giving the illusion of a coherent, evolving universe.
In this way, no matter how powerful the player becomes, the game will always be a challenge. Additionally, no two games would ever be the same. They might be similar, but never the same.
EV can presently be made to behave somewhat like a simulation, but one of the more crucial aspects, change of govt for a given syst/spob is problematic at best. Example: In EVClassic, there were essentially 2 major groups: Rebels and Confeds. Now, there are three possible resolutions to their conflict: Conflicts win, Rebels win, and a draw. To simulate all possible changes to the universe, you need twice the number of systs and spobs to give the illusion of changing govts. You could represent this as #govts*#systs. Expand this to EVO, where you have 6 major groups: Human, Voinian?sp?, Miranu?sp?, and the three strands. Assume there were 300 systs in the EVO universe. That would mean you'd need 6*300=1800 different systs to be able to simulate all possible changes in govt. And that excludes that inevitable revolutions and rebellions as a given empire becomes too corrupt or too large.
Of course this huge amount of work could be avoided if govt affiliation for systs and spobs could be altered within a misn bit instead of making a new syst/spob resource, but it still doesn't allow for the creation of new govts de novo.
I'm well aware that EVN is essentially done, and do not expect it to have any of the features I've mentioned (except the large, complex, pre-defined universe) but I just wanted to share my thoughts. I have no doubt the EVN will be a great deal of fun to play, but I can't help but wonder how long it will take before I'm conquoring planets out of boredom.
-STH
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Interesting and well thought out.
------------------ (url="http://"http://CelticStarbase.tsx.org")http://CelticStarbase.tsx.org(/url) (url="http://"mailto:webmaster@CelticStarbase.com")mailto:webmaster@CelticStarbase.com(/url)webmaster@CelticStarbase.com
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Originally posted by CelticStarbase: **Interesting and well thought out.
**
and long...
well, we can always wait for Coldstone and see if that allows alot of variety in a scenario.
I'm a bit wary of this one.
First, I enjoyed Tomb Raider I and IV. When I had finished, I put it back in the box and got on with my life. A few months later, I was ready to enjoy it all again. No problems there.
Second, it is possible to make plugins that are so hard that they are almost impossible. The reason most designers don't do this is that most players wouldn't be up for it. The Old Professor (find him on the EV board) did two fantastic but memory tiny plugs that ramped up the action in the EV and EVO scenarios with some tweaking.
On the old EV website, the advice to plugin makers was to make plugs that 'recaptured the magic'. As long as there are people out there who want to write these kinds of plugs, there should be no problem with the Alexander weeps thing.
At the end of the day, (or very early in the morning) it's just a game and it's time to get on with the rest of your life.
------------------ M A R T I N T U R N E R
That's the best (and longest) post i've read in quite a while. I used to play StarCraft so much, that in the last two months i have strictly forbidden myself to play it. :frown: And Diablo. :frown: And EVO. :frown: BUT NOT EV!!!!!
------------------ 'Light a man a fire and he'll be warm for one night. Set him on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.' Terry Pratchett
An extreme example of simplicity leading to complexity: (url="http://"http://www.discover.com/nov_00/featlife.html")http://www.discover....0/featlife.html(/url)
Originally posted by seant: **An extreme example of simplicity leading to complexity:http://www.discover....0/featlife.html
that's a great article, it makes us think about it.
------------------ Captain Orne AIM:CaptnG3 ICQ:31162561 Yahoo!:BOrnelasPT
weak anthropomorphism is always a tempting idea. personally, i prefer the rigor of the copenhagen interpretation to the warm-fuzziness of the multiverse alternative. yet i agree with the axiom that the simplest answer is usually the truth.
nevertheless, multiverse theories make for great science fiction.
------------------ Natural Resources Defense Council - the Earth's Best Defense
Originally posted by astro: **weak anthropomorphism is always a tempting idea. personally, i prefer the rigor of the copenhagen interpretation to the warm-fuzziness of the multiverse alternative. yet i agree with the axiom that the simplest answer is usually the truth.
I too am an exponent of the weak anthropic principal, everything we hold in our vast but incomplete repotoire of knowledge agrees with it, and it negates the necessity for god(s), in which I do not believe. If you too are an astronomer (as your handle suggests), visit my web site, within which lies some of said knowledge.
------------------ Nicholas Shanks Author of HexEdit and ResKnife: Available at (url="http://"http://nickshanks.com/")nickshanks.com(/url)
Originally posted by Martin Turner: **Second, it is possible to make plugins that are so hard that they are almost impossible. The reason most designers don't do this is that most players wouldn't be up for it. The Old Professor (find him on the EV board) did two fantastic but memory tiny plugs that ramped up the action in the EV and EVO scenarios with some tweaking.
At the end of the day, (or very early in the morning) it's just a game and it's time to get on with the rest of your life. **
I couldn't agree more with the second point. I respect T.O.P. for his remarkable enhancements to the EV and EVO plots, and in ways attempt to emulate that level of difficulty in CB. However, I have to remember not to make things too difficult upon final release. That's what testers are for, I suppose. Still, there are some extremely hard ships programmed in there, and that's the way it's gonna stay (nothing as rediculous as the Dreadnaught from EVO, though. I don't go in for those backdoor shenanigans).
Secondly, I'm not exactly sure how to go about "recaptureing the magic", but I intend to leave room in CB for other people to expand upon it however they wish. Alexander would not weep so, should he sit back and watch his empire evolve on its own accord. There would then be a spinoff empire to understand and contemplate. After all, conquering city-states and other nations is everything...Yet this is only my humble assertion. I suppose we'll see just how well a third-party (non-Ambrosia) environment is adapted by the plugin making community when CB is finalized.
------------------ - () () / }{ - (formerly fatalin.tycho) (url="http://"http://coldblood.cjb.net")Cold Blood(/url)