Your browser does not seem to support JavaScript. As a result, your viewing experience will be diminished, and you have been placed in read-only mode.
Please download a browser that supports JavaScript, or enable it if it's disabled (i.e. NoScript).
I've been thinking about this quite a lot, and in a way the UE and the Voinian Empire have a lot in common.
Now, it is worth noting that the UE is definitely the more "humane" entity--unlike the Voinians, it didn't enslave any races or gas any planets. Lets get that out on the table right now.
However, in terms of asserting their authority, the UE and Voinians are just a bit too similar. The Voinians conquer surrounding systems and establish their own authority over them. On the other side, the UE keeps many systems and planets uder its influence and is loth to let them go. While Huron is liberated in the Huron string, it happened under extreme duress and even then required the fast negotiationg of Admiral McPhearson--which as we see in a holovid announcment is challenged by elements in the Government.
Conversely, while there are Independent human systems they are only so due to a lack of UE presence. If the UE had the manpower to suppress the Renegades, I'm sure they too would be a part of it. In a way this is good; more unity means a better defense against threats like the one from the Voinians. However, think about EVO's intro text--the resourceds of a lot of distant UE systems are going to a war that they are quite far away from. Is this fair or just? What gives the UE the right to exploit them in this manner?
I would submit that the UE and Voinians are actually common in that they want as much control and influence over their neighbors as possible. The only difference is the manner in which they assert their power. While a UE victory is definitely the one best for humanity, the conquered races of the Voinians, and the EVO universe in general (play ROTV--if UE loses, the Crescent's got nothing on em), when you think about it the UE wants the same thing the Voinians do for their own race.
Is this a good or bad thing? Should the human systems each have the political right to decide whether they stay with Earth? If so, would the UE let them? What would be the consequences either way?
Please, feel free to discuss.....I'm curious to see how you guys react to this.
UEC
------------------ "Meetings were created by God, but separation was created by man." -Subaru, (url="http://"http://www.dothack.com").hack//sign (/url) (url="http://"http://www.intothematrix.com")The Animatrix(/url) (url="http://"http://www.ev-nova.net")EV-Nova.net(/url)
Eh, well, history shows that a planned economy run by an authoritarian government usually has a better chance than an Adam Smith-ish market economy for the same situation.
I'll post more on this later, to expand on that idea.
------------------ All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost. From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring; Renewed shall be blade that was broken, The crownless again shall be king. —J. R. R. Tolkien (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/cgi-bin/ubb/search.cgi?action=intro&default;=26")The Search Feature(/url)
Quote
Originally posted by UE Crusader: I've been thinking
That's never a good sign.
------------------ One ring to rule them all, One ring to find them, One ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
Rome in its republic period was imperial in nature. Most of its expansion came as a result of wars undertaken whilst it maintained a representative government. I have to agree that socialist-style economies work better and are more humane than capitalist (though George Bush would probably burn me at the stake for saying so.) But beyond that, there's the realistic understanding that people are stupid. It seems that, like the Marxist-Leninist-Maoist ideal, the UEs REPRESENTATIVE government understands that it must take certain action for the good of the people, because the people wouldn't do so themselves. They don't tell us what happened to Huron, but I have always imagined it to be like the African nations after they were "liberated from European opression." They fell flat on their faces. I'm sure imperialism looks like a hugely bad thing, but it was better for the people in Africa than their own governments (what ended up screwing 'em was the whole aparthied thing, or however it's spelled.) Whereas the UE would come in to a place realizing that all these lifeforms were sentient humanoids, and would give them a representative government for their own well-being. In short, the UE is so good and so beautiful it makes me cry (and sometimes wish that I actually lived in that game. I mean...) Thank you, Crusader, for posing such a fascinating question.
------------------ "I've learned that the people you care most about in life are taken from you too soon and all the less important ones just never go away."
Originally posted by UE Crusader: **However, think about EVO's intro text--the resourceds of a lot of distant UE systems are going to a war that they are quite far away from. Is this fair or just? What gives the UE the right to exploit them in this manner?
**
It's clear that the Voinians don't plan on slowing their advance - if the UE boarder falls, the 'distant UE systems' will discover slave labor camps and massacres in their midst.
------------------ I was disorientedly changing my body orientation in a clockwise direction while simulateously expressing my appreciation of mikee's humor and watching my posterior disconnect -- ElG7
Originally posted by UE Crusader: **I've been thinking about this quite a lot, and in a way the UE and the Voinian Empire have a lot in common.
This is a really interesting topic you bring up UEC- an it's something I've given a bit of thought to, especially when I was writing ROTV.
I've always thought the UEs were sort of a tamer version of the Voinians. As you said, they both do exploit the worlds under their control- (Huron vs Hinwar), though the Voinians are clearly the more brutal aggressors in this case.
What causes the UE's desire to conquer Voinian space is unclear. They seem to operate on the platform of making the galaxy safe for their people and those who have fallen under the heel of the Empire- but how many governments in history have done the same thing with evil, more subtle intentions?
The United States' war in Iraq started off as a search for weapons of mass destruction and ended up as "Operation Iraqi Freedom." The UEs may not be all that different..
_bomb
------------------ I think that you don't see many love stories in EV simply because the engine isn't quite geared towards that. What are you going to do, keep meeting your significant other in a bar (or, with Nova, the Outfitter, Shipyard, or Trade Center) and have questions like "Will you go out on a date with me?" | Yes/No | "Great, pick me up on <DST> in a month and we'll have dinner."? -EVula
1. I'm glad to see that you're beginning to see the light, UE Crusader.
2. If the human systems go independent, UE resources will diminish. It may allow the Voinians to win.
3. One thing that few people have considered is this: What if the UE wins? Can anyone guarantee that they won't go on an expansionist war path against their neighbors? Perhaps they let some independent systems go because their resources are tied up in the Voinian War. If the Voinians are gone, the days of the independent human territories may be numbered, not to mention the Miranu (Remember, the Miranu are quite weak themselves. They don't have much of an independent military force. The Zachit is no match for UE Cruisers.) and the others.
------------------ (url="http://"http://www.shopinisrael.com/")Support Israel by purchasing Israeli products(/url) (url="http://"http://www.libi-fund.org.il/")Fund for Strengthening Israel's Defense(/url) (url="http://"http://burgeridf.org/")Hamburgers(/url) and (url="http://"http://pizzaidf.org/")Pizzas(/url) for the IDF The Moderators: We stand between the darkness and the light, between the candle and the star.
But the striking problem about UE is renegades. They're not pirates, or not pretend to be, so we may wonder if they are rebelling against the UE, say, very present authority, or if they just foud that much money was as easy to take as disabling and plundering good travelling into space.
One thing that I have found is that militaries are very present for UE matters -even a political agreement such as the independance of Huron was handled by a UE general.
------------------ M'enfin! Y'a personne qui parle français ici?
Originally posted by Zacha Pedro: **But the striking problem about UE is renegades. They're not pirates, or not pretend to be, so we may wonder if they are rebelling against the UE, say, very present authority, or if they just foud that much money was as easy to take as disabling and plundering good travelling into space.
If they are rebelling against the UE, what is it about the UE that they are rebelling against at?
If they are truly rebelling, they would be labeled as rebels, but I see know sign of evidence that they are doing so. Rebels are those who take actions upon themselves to either change the government or force the government to change something. Usually the rebels disband once their objectives have been met or that they have been defeated.
Besides, these human renegades are plundering merchant ships and independent systems where there is little or no UE presence. If they were truly rebels, they would appeal to these system for support for their cause instead of harrasing them for what they got. Perhaps maybe they wanted to rebel in the first place but became corrupted.
As for the Voinian war, what would happen if the UE were never caught up in it, or that the war never existed? I think that you wouldnt have seen many complaints by the UE citizen about the taxation and hardship as you read in the intro of the game.
------------------ Nosumus Fortiolis Quad Volimus I'm the only guy in the universe that can make horses laugh and cry. (url="http://"http://www.evula.org/ddstation")DryDock Station(/url), the future site of Coraxus's stuff.
Okay...time to carry the discussion a bit further, I think. By the way, everyone feel free to answer my responses to others, raise new points, and agree/disagree with various arguments at your discretion.
posted by Solel:
Please do, because I disagree with you for two reasons:
1. Your assertion doesn't jive with the fact that the United States and its capitalist economic system endures, whereas the Soviet Union, basically the direct opposite of this, is dead as of the early 1990's. 2. I'm not sure I see how this relates to the UE/Voinian argument and the question I'm raising, especially given that I don't believe EVO says what the UE's economic system is one way or the other.
posted by Desperado:
It seems that, like the Marxist-Leninist-Maoist ideal, the UEs REPRESENTATIVE government understands that it must take certain action for the good of the people, because the people wouldn't do so themselves. They don't tell us what happened to Huron, but I have always imagined it to be like the African nations after they were "liberated from European opression." They fell flat on their faces. I'm sure imperialism looks like a hugely bad thing, but it was better for the people in Africa than their own governments (what ended up screwing 'em was the whole aparthied thing, or however it's spelled.)
This is a very interesting point. However, in terms of Huron EVO seems to imply that its doing pretty well--after the Free Huron string Huron's description text says that, if nothing else, Huron defends itself from Renegade incursions as well if not better than it did when under UE control.
posted by Blackdog:
So then, you are saying it is in their common interest to be underneath the UE banner. In that case, some new questions arise:
1. Is a unified group like the UE necessary to fight the Voinians, or could a confederacy do as good a job? In other words, as opposed to all these systems ruled by one Government (centered around the Earth), you have all these human systems agreeing to work together and share resources while retaining their own sovereignty and use of Government. Could this work? Is it more fair to the individual systems? Would it be more or less successful than the "United Earth" system?
2. When the war is over and/or the Voinians are no longer a significant threat, should the UE systems have the right to decide whether they should remain within the UE or secede?
posted by htjyang:
Now now--I'm merely raising questions, which is different from saying that the Voinians are better. I am by no means conceding our classic argument.
See my response to Blackdog on this and consider. I think we can flesh this out a bit.
Its an interesting point. On the one hand, the UE's entered war with the Voinians with the V's as the instigators. Also, having had a tough experience after meeting the voinians they might be hesitant to try their luck against the Crescent. Though the Miranu are relatively weak their technology is much stronger, and they have close economic ties with the Zidagar and Igadzra, two powerful factions that would probably intervene on their behalf if they were threatened.
Also, the UE has much to gain from a friendly relationship with the Miranu, as opposed to committing a vast amount of resources to conquering a distant and vast area of space. They would committ if they saw a threat, but that'd be more likely coming from one of the strands. But in that case I think the UE would back down pretty quick, given that they are no match for any one of the three.
All this said, I think the point about the Independent systems is well put. With every conceivable threat removed, would the UE seek to make all of humanity "United" or allow for freedom? What would be the consequence of the UE military buildup as a result of the Voinian War--would the UE restrain itself, or use this power to assert its authority? And which way should it be? These are questions we can definitey pursue and discuss.
posted by Bomb: What causes the UE's desire to conquer Voinian space is unclear. They seem to operate on the platform of making the galaxy safe for their people and those who have fallen under the heel of the Empire- but how many governments in history have done the same thing with evil, more subtle intentions?
Yes...however, the Hinwar were allowed to exist on their own and the UE relationship with the emalgha is one of mutual benefit. I've always taken it for granted that the UE intent to conquer Voinian space is due primarily to its desire to eliminate the threat to itself. However, the Hinwar example seems to suggest that they are uninterested in occupying territory that doesn't relate to their immediate military objectives. They tried to seize Avann Outpost (albiet failing to do so) and established Outpost Sigma in a formally voinian space, and yet let Liadon assert its independence as opposed to seizing the planet.
I think that in terms of the UE/Voinian war, UE aggression is but reactionary. As I said to htjyang, I think the larger issue is what the consequences of final victory are after the fact......
posted by Zacha Pedro:
I think the motivation for Renegades varies. I seem to recall that one or two of the Captains of Freeport have direct problems with the UE, whereas the others are just famous bandits or innovative minds. I think the Renegades are a mix of outright Pirates and would-be rebels, with about two-thirds or so being mere Pirates.
Yes, I've noticed that....it seems that for better or worse, the UE is fine with having military personnel double as diplomats.
Coraxus:
Perhaps, but I think you still would've had your Renegade problem. I think its up for discussion regarding whether the UE's would've recated the same in this case or not. Thoughts, anyone?
UE Crusader
No, I don't think a confederation would work. The voinians appear to be barely held back at the boarder, and unfortunately, this means exploiting all possible worlds for resources, whether they like it or not. No, it isn't fair, but it's probably fairer than voinian domination.
Of course, ideally , a loose confederation of autonomous planets would freely ship their resources to the frontier, for the shared purpose of winning the war. Unfortunately, this would be almost impossible.
Of course. As long as the war goes on, the United Earth must be maintained purely in the interest of survival. Once the voinians are neutralized, there will be far less need for a strong centralized government. Also, I think the United Earth is more of an emergency military body than an actual government system.
Originally posted by UE Crusader: **Okay...time to carry the discussion a bit further, I think.:) By the way, everyone feel free to answer my responses to others, raise new points, and agree/disagree with various arguments at your discretion.
This is why there are times when I wish that Peter Cartwright had written the UE missions to completion. Certainly, there are plug-ins that address the issue of UE Final Victory, but obviously no one can do it better than the original writer. I'd like to see how the UEs (who tend to solve things diplomatically) would rule over a large tract of new territory, most of which is inhabited by a hostile alien species. Guerilla warfare, terrorism, and open rebellion against the UE occupiers; all of them are realistic possibilities.
It's interesting stuff.
Originally posted by UE Crusader: See my response to Blackdog on this and consider. I think we can flesh this out a bit.
Originally posted by UE Crusader: 1. Is a unified group like the UE necessary to fight the Voinians, or could a confederacy do as good a job? In other words, as opposed to all these systems ruled by one Government (centered around the Earth), you have all these human systems agreeing to work together and share resources while retaining their own sovereignty and use of Government. Could this work? Is it more fair to the individual systems? Would it be more or less successful than the "United Earth" system?
Sounds nice in theory. It might work, but it also hinges upon how long the war lasts. The problem of the systems far from the frontier complaining about not seeing the threat still exists. Never underestimate people's capacity for short-sightedness.
Originally posted by UE Crusader: 2. When the war is over and/or the Voinians are no longer a significant threat, should the UE systems have the right to decide whether they should remain within the UE or secede?
What will be, will be. It depends upon the constitution and, more importantly, the aspirations of the people.
Originally posted by UE Crusader: Its an interesting point. On the one hand, the UE's entered war with the Voinians with the V's as the instigators. Also, having had a tough experience after meeting the voinians they might be hesitant to try their luck against the Crescent. Though the Miranu are relatively weak their technology is much stronger, and they have close economic ties with the Zidagar and Igadzra, two powerful factions that would probably intervene on their behalf if they were threatened.
I view it differently. The Strand War has the factions stalemated. As a result, no one likes to find another enemy.
Originally posted by UE Crusader: Also, the UE has much to gain from a friendly relationship with the Miranu, as opposed to committing a vast amount of resources to conquering a distant and vast area of space.
They have even more to gain by controlling the Miranu territories directly.
Originally posted by UE Crusader: They would committ if they saw a threat, but that'd be more likely coming from one of the strands.
Questionable assumption. You seem to think that states only fight against threats. Kuwait was not much of a threat to Iraq in 1991. Never underestimate the greed motive.
Originally posted by UE Crusader: But in that case I think the UE would back down pretty quick, given that they are no match for any one of the three.
I'm not so sure. The narrative suggests that the UE was outclassed by the Voinians in the beginning. But they rose to the challenge. In addition, a victorious UE will be in command of greater resources than any of the Strands. See above point about the Strands stalemate.
Originally posted by UE Crusader: All this said, I think the point about the Independent systems is well put. With every conceivable threat removed, would the UE seek to make all of humanity "United" or allow for freedom? What would be the consequence of the UE military buildup as a result of the Voinian War--would the UE restrain itself, or use this power to assert its authority? And which way should it be? These are questions we can definitey pursue and discuss.
I have a hard time seeing the UE disarm itself afterwards.
Well, I'll likely wind up just reinforcing or supporting other arguments that are already here, but I still want to express this idea.
The Voinians were clearly the original aggressors, at least according to the history we have. Maybe I'll look at the argument that history is written for the most part by the victors, but not now. So, the UE, after beating back these instigators, were likely thirsting for revenge. So they expand, beat back further Voinian fleets, build a buffer zone of colonies, and then they wind up in this uneasy stalemate.
Okay, so the UE is likely still wanting to beat the Voinians in a little more, as they could still want revenge. Now, if we go from the assumption that the UE defeats the Voinians and takes over all of Voinian space, we have several interesting consequences.
The general UE populace could be fed propaganda informing them that their current, military and dictatorial, government has brought them into a golden age, more than doubling their overall territory in the galaxy. Now, with this enormous power, I think it's pretty safe to assume that the leaders of the UE at this time would not have any serious desire for serious change to occur with regards to the borders of UE space, and would likely look to actually increase their territory still more. So here we get an interesting mindset. The UE leaders could start feeding out some kind of patriotic nationalism to the humans, and perhaps leave the Voinian subject races in the dust, merely incorporating them into the grand UE empire. Perhaps, with this new power that comes with owning roughly 40 stellar objects, they could just possibly think that the universe ought to respect them, and find out who's out there who needed to start respecting the UE.
So here we come to the issue of encountering the Emalgha and the Strands and the Miranu. And, although I may be taking a somewhat pessimistic view here, I think it's certainly possible that the UE would become just as expansionistic as the Voinians initially were, and would readily invade the Miranu once the UE had ensured that it could achieve a victory. Htjyang's point that the Strands would likely not do much to halt the UE due to the Strand War stalemate has much evidence behind it.
Thus, I conclude that unless the UE leaders at the time of the victory over the Voinians are completely moral and altruistic people, the UE will transform into its enemy, becoming a new incarnation of the Voinians to some extent.
Oh, and on a mostly irrelevant note, are you from Israel, htjyang? Either way, I find it kind of amusing that hamburgers are being sold for the IDF. I suppose kosher slaughterhouses are now a full subsidiary of MacDonalds...
Originally posted by Bomb: ** This is why there are times when I wish that Peter Cartwright had written the UE missions to completion. Certainly, there are plug-ins that address the issue of UE Final Victory, but obviously no one can do it better than the original writer. I'd like to see how the UEs (who tend to solve things diplomatically) would rule over a large tract of new territory, most of which is inhabited by a hostile alien species. Guerilla warfare, terrorism, and open rebellion against the UE occupiers; all of them are realistic possibilities.**
And the issue of ruling over a population that is highly likely to turn into a terroristguerilla warfare army could theoretically lend weight to my belief that the UE would wind up being no better than the Voinians were themselves, ruling over those systems. To counteract such hostility, the UE would likely institute harsh military rule in the Voinian Territories, thus becoming a new form of their enemy.
Don't forget the good old EV. The conditions are exactly met: an alien war, with a powerful human Earth-centered government winning the war (yes they will win!) then becoming an overpowerful confederacy, and then renegades splitting between rebels and pirates. Of course UE guys may not act like the confederacy in EV but yet we have the proof that it is possible. And as for going against the other aliens, it doesn't seem realistic to me, though possible.
In the last year, I've written two theses on war and pacifism, one from a historical point of view, one from an ethical one. Let's see what I can apply...
1. We don't know enough about the economics of the two systems to compare--although we know that the Voinians have what is effectively a state-run economy (only permitted people allowed to transport cargo in the Voinan empire.) Also, even if we did, we'd disagree, by the first law of economics--for every economist there is an equal and opposite economist.
2. The Voinians are clearly a highly militaristic society. We might compare them to classical Sparta, but with the imperialist tendencies of Athens. (And that, boys and girls, is the paradox of Thucydides!) They will value courage, success, strength etc. The enemy will be demonised and degraded, by use of propaganda, so that the Voinains are able to suppress any domestic resistance to the war. This is similar to the labelling of the Vietnamese as "gooks" in America's little jaunt over there, although in that case, it failed miserably. Another example would be the oft-quoted story about the Germans bayonetting nuns and crucifying babies in WW1, which never happened.
3. The United Earth conglomeration is similar in its philosophy. Bravery etc are all held in high esteem. Most political decisions are taken by military leaders, such as Adm. McP. It is a decidedly militaristic society, just as the Voinians are. It is, however, justifiable to point out that in any society that is at war, militaristic tendencies come out.
4. This can be contrasted to the Miranu--a non-militaristic society, almost pacifist. The Zachit are kept at arms length, almost, and while affiliated to the Miranu, are not necessarily of them.
5. As UEC pointed out, there are differences between the two. A direct comparison can be made with the cases of Emalghia and Huron. The Emalghans had to fight to overthrow the Voinians. With Huron it was (eventually) a political settlement that gave them their freedom. UE also aren't so much in the business of empire for empire's sake--could they have conquered, rather than lain waste to Pariah? Systems such as Helios or Sumer would be easy to impose control over, but they don't. Does anyone have any doubt that the Voinians would? That said, we don't know what would happen if UE captured a Voinian planet. Genocide? Give them their freedom? Forced occupation? These are all the points Bomb brought up, and here the limitations of the EVO universe are made apparent.
6. Stepping back from being inside the universe for a moment, it is in fact inevitable that the Voinians and the UE will be somewhat similar. The EVO universe was created by humans, and hence all of the races in it display marked human characteristics, from the imperialistic megalomania of the Voinians to the desire for tranquillity of the Miranu to the courage of the Emalgha to the paranoia of the Igadzra. That's why we are attracted to the different races--we see something that we can empathise with. The UE-Voinian clash is an example of two militaristic cultures coming together, in the same way as Rome and Carthage was. Because, essentially, the Voinians are human in characteristic, they share certain characteristics with the humans of the UE.
Another interesting question is whether ASW wrote any political points into the game. UE and Voinians as US and USSR? Or as WW2? What does that make everyone else? And so on. Of course, ASW have been asked this and deny it, but no author has ever truly understood his creation. Isaac Asimov was approached once by someone who had an idea for what his robot novels symbolised. When Ike denied it, his fan retorted "Just because you wrote it doesn't mean you know what it symbolises."
~J~
About EVO having US and USSR: This was discussed in detail in EVo=Cold War Satire? thread. The Peter Cartwright himself writes (!). Quite special, as he hasnt written for years since then. You could almost say he never wrote again, but I think there is some posts afetr that.
------------------ I am eager to try to ansver mission questions
Originally posted by Desperado: **I have to agree that socialist-style economies work better and are more humane than capitalist (though George Bush would probably burn me at the stake for saying so.) **
First off, what happened to the USSR? It collapsed. Whereas the US is still going strong, no matter what the leftist media says.
Secondly, I highly doubt Bush would burn you at the stake. While I don't agree with everything he advocates, I think he's a heck of a lot better than the alternative(s). (Algore, Reverened Al Sharkton, Carol Mosely-Brawn, etc...)
And now, my opinion on the actual subject of this thread: No matter who wins the UE/V conflict, the Miranu will get dominated. They have no defense other than their merchant status, and I'm sure the UE politicos would rather just invade and get it for free. (A comparison to Iraq will be drawn here by some. I find this ludicrous. We didn't invade Iraq for Oil. And I don't think it was really for WMD either. We invaded because Saddam was a threat to this nation. The whole WMD thing was a valid hypothetical situation, paraded to the American Public as fact, because the average American Joe is too braindead from the meaningless drivel he is constantly ingesting... for example, "reality tv"...)
So, if the UE wins, the Miranu become part of whatever union is formed after the war. Is this so bad? They would have representatives in the government, probably, and would benefit from sharing with the UE worlds, as would the UE worlds benefit from Miranu input.
Still, I like the idea of the UE dissolving into a loose confederacy at the end of the war. This would offer competition between worlds, instead of just drearily doing what they are told. They would be pushed to develop better and better things, and thus progress would be made. For a rough example, take the three Strands. Their competition has led them all to develop better and better weapons with which to clobber each other. Maybe the former UE worlds could apply this to their economies? On second thought, no. Humans are, for the most part, too dumb to not want to destroy each other...
The other thing is, the UE did nothing to provoke the UE/VE struggle, somewhat like Iraq and Kuwait. If the Voinians invaded a valuable trading partner of the UE, the Miranu, would the UE just stand by? And maybe they'd just drive them out and then let them alone for 12 years, then a new leader would decide to finish the job.
The main thing I see is that the UE citizens dont seem to have a direct voice into their government. My pilot has been buzzing around for about 60 years, and has yet to see the UE hold an election. Sounds like some systems might want to secede...
And yes, I am a right wing, gun loving, woman hating, racist white male...
EDIT: ...who likes ratm, respects women, and has several "Afro-American" friends. They agree that being American comes before being black though, and thus, are American-Afros...
------------------ Early to bed, early to rise, makes a man healthy, wealthy... and then he dies.
(This message has been edited by double_zero (edited 06-04-2003).)