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Originally posted by firestorm: **Being that ambrosia cant e-mail me my password, i cant start a topic so i hope nobody gets mad if I just post it here. I recently downloaded reign of the voinians 2, but when i tried using stuffit expander it said that this archive is damaged and can't be worked with. Is there anyway i could fix that?
**
Ummmm.... If ASW can't e-mail you your password, then why are you logged in?
------------------ If at first you don't succeed...Hit it harder! - Me -------------- Millennium. Its coming, prepare for it. Coming to the (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiaSW.com/games/ev/chronicles.html")EV Chronicles(/url).
Originally posted by Captain Carnotaur: **Ummmm.... If ASW can't e-mail you your password, then why are you logged in?
My computer remebers it for when I post, but it doesn't remeber it when I try to start a new topic. Don't ask me why.
------------------
Originally posted by firestorm: **My computer remebers it for when I post, but it doesn't remeber it when I try to start a new topic. Don't ask me why.
Have you tried copy/paste?
voinian, UE, or neither... i choose neither. i'd rather have an igazra or a souped up azdara than a UE or voinian cruiser any day.
------------------ All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost
Originally posted by Zair: **voinian, UE, or neither... i choose neither. i'd rather have an igazra or a souped up azdara than a UE or voinian cruiser any day.:)
You mention the Igadzra, you mention the Azdgari, and you totally neglect the most powerful of the three Strands. Go Zidagar! Go Zidara!
Err...all calm now...
------------------ -Lyat Esponer Corsair
well SilverDragon i take it you have given me total control of the Coalition since you havent posted or killed me for making peace with the Azdgari so just make it offical and give me command ok?
------------------ Insanity has its advantages
Originally posted by SilverDragon: That's a contradiction, my friend. The Igazra is larger than the largest UE ship, and as long as the Voinian Dreadnought. If you want something that's not bulky and large, I suggest you look into the Crescent civilian ships, Arada and Lazira.
As for the rest...it's all very nicely put down, but we all know that at the heart of it the Voinians are intended to be bad guys.
First of all, it's not as long as the Voinian Dreadnought. And you're ignoring the issue of width. UE carrier and cruiser are both wider than the Igazra.
Second, I want a ship that is powerful but not too big with decent maneuverability. Of the 3 most powerful ships available, Igazra fits the bill best.
Third, how can you be so sure about that last point?
------------------ (url="http://"http://www.reverseroe.com/reverseroe/")http://www.reverseroe.com/reverseroe/(/url) The Moderators: Standing between the darkness and the light, between the candle and the star.
Originally posted by htjyang: **First of all, it's not as long as the Voinian Dreadnought. And you're ignoring the issue of width. UE carrier and cruiser are both wider than the Igazra.
Last time I checked, both the Igazra and the Voinian Dreadnought stood at 250 metres in length. Of course, I haven't been able to check for a while, so I'll assume you're going by evidence you've checked recently. I'm not ignoring the issue of width as such; I still believe the Igazra is larger than the UE cruiser, and I only stated the dreadnought and Igazra in length comparison because when I saw it I found it quite impressive (and don't blame me, but length has been the standard basic measurement of larger ships in webstories for some time, so it comes naturally).
As for the last point...no, I can't be sure. But for all I've heard, there's no evidence to show that the Voinians are the victims, and there are suggestions throughout the game that the U.E. are the victims, and these suggestions go beyond U.E. propaganda. The Voinians in the game are written more as traditional "bad guys" than what you were suggesting, and no suggestion of Voinians being good is mentioned in what I've seen of their string. As well as that, the first Voinian mission suggests several times that the Voinians are in fact the aggressors.
You make a good argument, htjyang, but from what I've seen, Cartwright = simplicity, Burch = complexity, Frandall = head hurting. I'm using the overall impression of EV(O/N) to gather this, and thus it may be off, but I get a very strong impression that EV:O is not a game which is soaked in political detail. The Voinians appear to be the aggressors in every way, and the U.E. in very few, so...I'm happy.
Sorry I couldn't present a better argument, but it's late here, and I'm too tired to go scraping around for little bits of arguable evidence. : )
Originally posted by SilverDragon: As for the last point...no, I can't be sure. But for all I've heard, there's no evidence to show that the Voinians are the victims, and there are suggestions throughout the game that the U.E. are the victims, and these suggestions go beyond U.E. propaganda. The Voinians in the game are written more as traditional "bad guys" than what you were suggesting, and no suggestion of Voinians being good is mentioned in what I've seen of their string. As well as that, the first Voinian mission suggests several times that the Voinians are in fact the aggressors.
Does it really require a "good side" and a "bad side" to start a war? Are you sure there isn't more to EVO than meets the eye at a first and cursory glance?
Initial responses to htjyang's contentions that the Voinians are not evil:
It is indeed implied throughout Override that the Voinians are a conquering, hostile, and rather brutal race. There are many examples of this.
#1. We learn from the MTC missions that the Voinians are completely unresponsive to trade proposals. If nothing else, this shows that the Voinians are isolationist in nature and appear to have little interest in maintaining diplomacy with other races.
#2. We know that the Voinians make a habit out of conquering/destroying races and pressing them into servitude, whether they desired it or not. While Override never says that the slaves are without representation, it never says that they have it either. In the context of the scenario it appears quite unlikely that the former is the case, espeically considering how the Voinians went about conquering them in the first place (i.e. taking them over, no questions asked).
To back up the latter point, it is interesting to note that only conquered slaves seem to work in places like the Krotun mines. What are the Voinian workers doing? Acting as taskmasters, serving on one of many Voinian warships, or manning one of the outposts. Also consider Gualon, where the slaves are kept in check by the threat of an armed station in orbit above the planet. How can we deduce that the Voinians and the slaves are equal given these circumstances?
#3. We are shown repeatedly that the Voinians fight to destroy their enemies however possible. We know for a fact that they have engaged in massacres: we know it from the background story of Ghammol Station, the annilihation of the planet above the Emalgha system in the Voinian missions, and the utter destruction of Verril Prime later on. There is also at least one uninhabited planet in Voinian space totally devoid of life because the Voinians wiped it out. The Voinians are shown to have occupied some conquered territory, but they clearly have no problem laying entire worlds to waste if deemed necessary.
#4. As near as we can tell, the Voinians started the Voinian War by attacking UE vessels on sight when they made first contact. One can argue that the UE made this up to put the Voinians in a bad light, but in the context of Voinian behavior this is a likely scenario. Besides, if the Voinians didn't start it, that means the UE did. This, I think, is totally infeasible. We know that UE tech was not well developed at the time; the UE Carrier was not in service before the start of the war. If the UE fighter and Destroyer existed, they were surely early models and inferior to what we are familiar with at the start of Override's scenario. This is backed up by the UE fighter's description, which mentions how the latest model of UE fighter features improved shielding. If the craft's improved shielding is that low, it must have been abysml back then. In contrast the Voinians are an older race, and their ships were probably at least as strong as they are at the start of EVO's scenario. Furthermore it isn't too likely that an exploration fleet would have a substantial military escort. Given all of this, the humans would have to have been remarkably stupid to open fire on alien warships with limited firepower and no knowledge as to their intentions. All of this points toward one possibility: the Voinians attacked first, with the intention of conquering the humans as they did with other races before.
Now, if you want to argue the UE's bad points, we can do that. I am not a die-hard UE fan (though I am definitely pro-UE), and nothing is perfect and without flaws. However, given all of this, its safe to say the Voinians definitely do not share moral equivelancy with the UE, and they have clearly done heinous things at the UE would never, ever do. The Voinians are far worse, and have much more to answer for.
UEC
------------------ Nova Legacy: The Roughnecks, the first in the Legacy series of plugs for EV Nova. Coming soon!
(This message has been edited by UE Crusader (edited 04-09-2002).)
Originally posted by htjyang: Are you sure there isn't more to EVO than meets the eye at a first and cursory glance?
Yes. I design similar universes, and this one looks neat and straightforward. There are a few points to argue, like this, but almost everything is set out before you. Kudos to ATMOS to Nova, but most of the kudos for one thing; the Valkyrie and Starbridge match-up. EVO is really just fairly simple (but is interesting in it's simplicity), and I've therefore come to the personal conclusion that such things are just coincidental and that everything is how it at first seems.
But let me step down, since UEC has more time.
posted by SilverDragon:
Ah, but double-teaming him would be so much fun.....
Originally posted by Opalius: Have you tried copy/paste?
Yep
Originally posted by UE Crusader: #1. We learn from the MTC missions that the Voinians are completely unresponsive to trade proposals. If nothing else, this shows that the Voinians are isolationist in nature and appear to have little interest in maintaining diplomacy with other races.
Most Democrats in Congress voted against NAFTA and PNTR. But I wouldn't exactly call them "isolationist in nature and appear to have little interest in maintaining diplomacy with other races."
I would suggest that the Voinians simply have a different philosophy.
Originally posted by UE Crusader: #2. We know that the Voinians make a habit out of conquering/destroying races and pressing them into servitude, whether they desired it or not. While Override never says that the slaves are without representation, it never says that they have it either. In the context of the scenario it appears quite unlikely that the former is the case, espeically considering how the Voinians went about conquering them in the first place (i.e. taking them over, no questions asked).
How can you be certain that the Voinians weren't invited? Before you tell me that is impossible, allow me to remind you the example of the king of Perugium who bequeathed his kingdom to the Roman Empire.
Originally posted by UE Crusader: To back up the latter point, it is interesting to note that only conquered slaves seem to work in places like the Krotun mines. What are the Voinian workers doing? Acting as taskmasters, serving on one of many Voinian warships, or manning one of the outposts.
Again, you have no evidence whatsoever that the Voinians don't use their own race as slaves. If that does happen, then Voinian slavery may be economically based rather than race-based. Nor do you have any evidence that the people enslaved by Voinians can also serve as "taskmasters, serving on one of many Voinian warships, or manning one of the outposts". I again direct your attention to the example of Austria-Hungary.
Originally posted by UE Crusader: Also consider Gualon, where the slaves are kept in check by the threat of an armed station in orbit above the planet. How can we deduce that the Voinians and the slaves are equal given these circumstances?
Slaves, practically by definition, are usually not pleased by their circumstances. Slave revolts happen all the time and we can assume that this is a precaution against such a revolt. Citing this example does not shed any light on the nature of slavery (race-based or economically-based) in the Voinian Empire.
Originally posted by UE Crusader: #3. We are shown repeatedly that the Voinians fight to destroy their enemies however possible. We know for a fact that they have engaged in massacres: we know it from the background story of Ghammol Station ,
Can you refresh my memory?
Originally posted by UE Crusader: the annilihation of the planet above the Emalgha system in the Voinian missions,
We know that the planet was a mining colony. There is no reason to believe that it was densely populated. Sicne the mine was important to the Emalgha war effort, it can be regarded as a strategic target.
Originally posted by UE Crusader: and the utter destruction of Verril Prime later on.
(snip)
The Voinians are shown to have occupied some conquered territory, but they clearly have no problem laying entire worlds to waste if deemed necessary.
Probably because the colony did not surrender. (What was the purpose of the UE fleet over there?) There are numerous precedents in our own history that one of the fastest ways to conquer a race is to promise brutal and ruthless destruction should they not surrender. Entire cities had been butchered to force the surrender of the enemy. One can argue that the results from a few brutal massacres is preferable to protracted warfare if the former can force the surrender of the adversary earlier because their might be a comparative net savings of lives.
Originally posted by UE Crusader: There is also at least one uninhabited planet in Voinian space totally devoid of life because the Voinians wiped it out.
Again, I'm sorry for not remembering the descriptive texts for all the planets in EVO. If you can refresh my memory, I'd be grateful.
Originally posted by UE Crusader: #4. As near as we can tell, the Voinians started the Voinian War by attacking UE vessels on sight when they made first contact. One can argue that the UE made this up to put the Voinians in a bad light, but in the context of Voinian behavior this is a likely scenario. Besides, if the Voinians didn't start it, that means the UE did. This, I think, is totally infeasible. We know that UE tech was not well developed at the time; the UE Carrier was not in service before the start of the war. If the UE fighter and Destroyer existed, they were surely early models and inferior to what we are familiar with at the start of Override's scenario. This is backed up by the UE fighter's description, which mentions how the latest model of UE fighter features improved shielding. If the craft's improved shielding is that low, it must have been abysml back then. In contrast the Voinians are an older race, and their ships were probably at least as strong as they are at the start of EVO's scenario. Furthermore it isn't too likely that an exploration fleet would have a substantial military escort. Given all of this, the humans would have to have been remarkably stupid to open fire on alien warships with limited firepower and no knowledge as to their intentions. All of this points toward one possibility: the Voinians attacked first, with the intention of conquering the humans as they did with other races before.
I'm willing to concede that the Voinians did start the war and I will not be making the arguments you so eloquently refuted.
What I will ask for, however, is some understanding.
Is the best way to accommodate an obviously xenophobic and powerful race by fighting back and fortifying a frontier? Because that apparently is what the UE did.
I don't think so.
Rather, I'd suggest an alternative: The UE should withdrew further back into their space and leave the Voinians alone.
Many xenopohbes are quite content living in their isolation and if the UE had not persisted in shoving their presence in their face, the long war might've ended within weeks.
You also seem to deny the right of the Voinians to be xenophobic. Exactly upon what grounds would you deny them their right to live alone? I readily concede that shooting up the UE mission was over the line. But I would suggest that the UE approach afterwards should not necessarily recommend itself to any reasonable person.
posted by htjyang:
**Most Democrats in Congress voted against NAFTA and PNTR. But I wouldn't exactly call them "isolationist in nature and appear to have little interest in maintaining diplomacy with other races."
I would suggest that the Voinians simply have a different philosophy. **
Possibly, but it seems that the Voinians have a pattern of not wanting to engage in friendly relations with anyone. Every race they have encountered is enslaved or at war (UE and Emalgha) save for the Miranu, probably because they're pretty far off from current Voinian space and the empire has its plate full already.
A point of order to back this up: There is not one government or race within or bordering the Voinian Empire that they have chosen to coexist with. Not one.
I look at the patterns. The Emalgha did not want to be enslaved, because they clearly fought back with vigor. Nor did the Hinwar, or they would not have wanted to revolt. If this is not enough for you, there are smaller races that the Voinians took over that are briefly discussed in Voinian descs. To tell the truth I don't seem to have a Voinian pilot around anymore, but if you want more substance I'll look em' up with EV-Edit. I can remember one other example right now, at least: the Dur and Ala races, which occupy twin moons of the same names. I remember enough of what I've read to recall that the two had disagreements and were at war, until the Voinians came and conquered them both, uniting them in servitude to their masters.
Hmmm. Well, I don't really care what form of slavery they use, as I believe all slavery is wrong. Not to get off track, but slavery in the south was certainly economic slavery, although the racist aspects of that tend to get more attention from most people. I think we can agree that regardless of the reason, slavery is a great injustice. So even if Voinian slavery is economically-based, I don't see a justification for it. Returning to Voinian nature, how do the Voinians get more slaves? By conquering weaker races. This is definitely a warlike, hostile culture, and one that is, in at least some cases, forcing entire races into slavery so they (the Voinians) can become more wealthy.
All slaves have good reason to not be pleased with their circumstances. And I freely acknowledge that the station is a precaution. The example doesn't demonstrate the type of slavery the Voinians use, but two points: One, as I said before it doesn't matter to me which kind it is. Second, the example in fact backs up one of my points: that the Hinwar were not willingly put into servitude, that they were conquered violently, and that the Hinwar as a whole were all too eager to rise up and overthrow their masters: as soon as we take out Gualon Station in the UE scenario, the Voinians lose Gualon/Liadon. In addition, the Krotun slaves also overthrew their masters at the first opportunity.
Yes. One moment....
"Ghammol is the name of a town on Emalghia, whose inhabitants, at the time of the Voinian occupation, were massacred in reprisal for Emalghan resistance actions."
Good point. There's not enough background information to refut that, so I won't.
Here you go. This desc is particularly telling.
"Irid was the home of a sentient people, now long forgotten, who were enslaved by the Voinians. They proved to be extremely rebellious, however, and eventually the Voinians, having decided to make an example of them, caused the production of the thick blue toxic gas which still fils the atmosphere - wiping out the native people. The Voinians then abandoned the world."
**I'm willing to concede that the Voinians did start the war and I will not be making the arguments you so eloquently refuted.
Many xenopohbes are quite content living in their isolation and if the UE had not persisted in shoving their presence in their face, the long war might've ended within weeks. **
No, that would've been a most unwise strategy. For one thing, the Voinians most certainly do not merely keep to themselves and leave it at that, as the Polaris in EV Nova do. Again, the Voinians clearly have an aggressive, warlike nature. The Emalgha, for example, would have been quite content being left alone (I can once again back this up with descs if you doubt this), but it was the Voinians who came and occupied their homeworld without cause. If the Voinians had wanted to live in isolation, their borders would be nowhere near as large as they are.
Given the pattern of Voinian behavior demonstrated earlier, its doubtful that the Voinians would have not advanced any further if the UE had drawn back. And where could they have drawn back to? Earth is incredibly close to the border; not far at all from Outpost Alpha and Outpost Gamma, vital lines of defense against the Voinian threat. What could the UE have done? Abandon Earth? Their center of Government, their homeworld? All to accomodate a hostile enemy that attacks without provocation? Hardly. What you propose is far too much to ask, and on top of that its a downright unrealistic strategy. The UE draws back, the Voinians come and conquer more territory, the UE draws back....eventually, there's nowhere to run to.
I do not oppose the right to be xenophobic in the way the Polaris are in Nova. I DO oppose the Voinian method, because it is clear they do not want and never did want to live peacefully isolated from all others: if that were true, they would not be conquering others as they do. I think one can be and is completely justified in being 100% opposed to Voinian aggression, especially considering what they do to the conquered.
I have to disagree with you about the UE response based on what I said in the above response. The Voinians would not have let them alone. What the UE essentially did was defend itself against a hostile foe, and they did what they had to. Their actions did not cause the conflict, but they did enable them to survive it. The only alternatives were to fall back (your proposal) or submit to Voinian rule; both of these choices are totally unacceptable.
Your turn.
(This message has been edited by UE Crusader (edited 04-10-2002).)
Is it possible to work for both the Voinians as well as the UE/Emalgha/Hinwar in one pilot file? I currently have a maxed out Igazra that has done the Voinian missions. I have just begun to play through the opening UE missions with this ship and have gained the cloaking device. Doesn't anyone know if you can play the entire string through including contact with the Emalgha and freeing the Hinwar, or should I just stop and start a new game?
Originally posted by Belly Monster: -snip-
yes
yes to which part? can I or can't I?
Originally posted by Belly Monster: yes to which part? can I or can't I?
You can.
What you should do is to work for the Voinians first, then work for the UE. Get their starting missions at Pax Station.
Originally posted by UE Crusader: Possibly, but it seems that the Voinians have a pattern of not wanting to engage in friendly relations with anyone. Every race they have encountered is enslaved or at war (UE and Emalgha) save for the Miranu, probably because they're pretty far off from current Voinian space and the empire has its plate full already.
If they are xenophobic, then it is natural that they do not want neighbors. True isolation is when there is literally nobody close by.
Originally posted by UE Crusader: I look at the patterns. The Emalgha did not want to be enslaved, because they clearly fought back with vigor. Nor did the Hinwar, or they would not have wanted to revolt. If this is not enough for you, there are smaller races that the Voinians took over that are briefly discussed in Voinian descs. To tell the truth I don't seem to have a Voinian pilot around anymore, but if you want more substance I'll look em' up with EV-Edit. I can remember one other example right now, at least: the Dur and Ala races, which occupy twin moons of the same names. I remember enough of what I've read to recall that the two had disagreements and were at war, until the Voinians came and conquered them both, uniting them in servitude to their masters.
Instead of shedding light on Voinian behavior, this may actually shed light on the races you mentioned. Your logic does not invalidate the possibility I presented. For all we know, they did invite Voinian rule, only later did they change their minds. It is even possible that a treaty was drawn up detailing the terms of the relationship and when they reneged on their part of the bargain, the Voinians retaliated by occupying them.
Originally posted by UE Crusader: Hmmm. Well, I don't really care what form of slavery they use, as I believe all slavery is wrong. Not to get off track, but slavery in the south was certainly economic slavery, although the racist aspects of that tend to get more attention from most people. I think we can agree that regardless of the reason, slavery is a great injustice. So even if Voinian slavery is economically-based, I don't see a justification for it. Returning to Voinian nature, how do the Voinians get more slaves? By conquering weaker races. This is definitely a warlike, hostile culture, and one that is, in at least some cases, forcing entire races into slavery so they (the Voinians) can become more wealthy.
Not so fast. If slavery is indeed economically-based, then for all we know, there may be very strict Voinian laws regarding slavery. For example, there might be laws dictating that a person can only become a slave willingly. (Motives can be numerous. If it is economically-based, it's quite possible that a person would willingly enter slavery to pay off a large debt. Or perhaps criminals must become slaves for their victims' families.) There might be laws dictating treatment of slaves (no "cruel and unusual" variety). There might be laws dictating that the slaves must be set free by a certain time. (If you read the Bible, you probably have a clue as to what I'm referring to.)
There are more possible systems than race-based onces. I already mentioned economically-based ones and I mentioend the possibility of one enforced as a matter of crime and punishment. People may also become slaves to repay a debt of honor.
In short, what if people became slaves through their own free will?
If the system is not race-based, then the sources of slavery are numerous. As yet, you still have not presented any evidence erasing the possibility that Voinians may use their own as slaves, all the more possible if slavery is of the forms mentioned above. The forms mentioned above can ensure a steady supply of slaves (That is, unless Voinians can solve their crime problem and create a Communist paradise.) without conquest. And, if they follow the pattern of Austria-Hungary, conquered races can become masters as well.
Originally posted by UE Crusader: All slaves have good reason to not be pleased with their circumstances. And I freely acknowledge that the station is a precaution. The example doesn't demonstrate the type of slavery the Voinians use, but two points: One, as I said before it doesn't matter to me which kind it is. Second, the example in fact backs up one of my points: that the Hinwar were not willingly put into servitude, that they were conquered violently, and that the Hinwar as a whole were all too eager to rise up and overthrow their masters: as soon as we take out Gualon Station in the UE scenario, the Voinians lose Gualon/Liadon. In addition, the Krotun slaves also overthrew their masters at the first opportunity.
Your point one has been dealt with above.
As for point 2, I must say again: Not so fast.
I agree that the Hinwar lived under the shadow of miltiary coercion. But you have not yet demonstrated that they did not invite the Voinians in to begin with. Nor have you proven that they did not bring about their fate through faults of their own. As far as we know, the Hinwar may simply be ungrateful ingrates. (Perhaps reminding you of another race we're talking about in JC?)
Originally posted by UE Crusader: Yes. One moment....
First of all, I'd like to commend whoever wrote the text. He wrote it with great objectivity.
And I said "objectivity", because I contend that the text tells less than you want to believe.
Remember the My Lai Massacre? An objective historian would've written: "(My Lai) is the name of a town (in Vietnam), whose inhabitants, at the time of the (American) occupation, were massacred in reprisal for (Vietnamese) resistance actions."
Were they massacred by Americans? Yes. Does that mean the entire American government was involved? No.
Similarly, as far as we know, the massacre could've resulted from anything ranging from a confusion after a hard battle to a few angry Voinian field commanders whose ruthless actions should not reflect upon their government or their kindred.
Originally posted by UE Crusader: Here you go. This desc is particularly telling.
Simply another version of the American government sending blankets carrying rabies to the Native Americans. Just more successful.
Biological warfare had been used since time immemorial. I don't think we're supposed to be surprised.
Originally posted by UE Crusader: No, that would've been a most unwise strategy. For one thing, the Voinians most certainly do not merely keep to themselves and leave it at that, as the Polaris in EV Nova do. Again, the Voinians clearly have an aggressive, warlike nature. The Emalgha, for example, would have been quite content being left alone (I can once again back this up with descs if you doubt this), but it was the Voinians who came and occupied their homeworld without cause. If the Voinians had wanted to live in isolation, their borders would be nowhere near as large as they are.
I concede that line of reasoning I proposed (The one about withdrawal).
So let me propose a new one!
Ever watched Babylon 5? Do you know how first contact between the humans and the Minbari went?
P.S. I must confess, seldom have I felt my talent for explanation so sorely tested. You put up some fairly formidable arguments. Particularly the last 2 sections. I had to take a break to re-organize my thoughts.