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Tourney results and discussion
Full topic title: (TOURNAMENT) Results of the First Bump-o-Matic Pop-RaceŠ Sept 26th (This board doesn't let me post long titles anymore, bad for the "movement of ad-style tournament titlesŠŽ")
First of all, thanks to all the participants. What a tourney experience! And thanks again and a lot to Hyko who did a great job programming the new tourney system!
Starting with random ranks showed some interesting results. Ryoko joined a bit late and for technical reasons was rowed in at the end of the list . So she had to fight her way up all through the field...
After four rounds of bumprace and 32 games the winner is....
Hyko! tata!!! Congratulations!!!
and here's the rest of the story: 2. eccles 3. Ryoko 4. Eno 5. lumisa 6. Paulina 7. popeye 8. zap 9. nemo
ending one round earlier the winner would have been eccles! tata!!! lasting two rounds longer the winner could have been: guess who
We experienced some serious delay in the beginning because stupid popeye played the wrong opponent (well played, Paulina). He was punished for that later on... (see also: results) I have to apologize for that again. We learned a bit about how the Bump-o-Matic Pop-RaceŠ-system can be improved next time... Some issues are to be dicussed in this thread later on.
Liked it so far, though I played unexpectedly bad. Or all the others so good... Get all the results in detail at http://pop-pop.webhop.net Interesting great new feature there: The statistics pages!!! Have a look.
popeye, on Sep 26 2004, 11:44 PM, said:
Maybe we have to switch to (TANN) and (TRES) for tournamentannouncement and tournamentresult
First of all I want to thank you for co-hosting, too! It was in my opinion a huge outcome for this short announcement period. We were 9 players in the starting field (10 including Helix, who showed not up (as often;))). And I want to thank all others to play and especially all to stay till the end. I was happy to see Lumisa after a long absence on a tournament again.
To improve the resultsview I think we should post the beginning rank in brackets behind the name... I allow me to do it in your list:
Hyko! (3.) tata!!! Congratulations!!!
and here's the rest of the story: 2. eccles (2.) 3. Ryoko (9.) 4. Eno (1.) 5. lumisa (5.) 6. Paulina (6.) 7. popeye (8.) 8. zap (4.) 9. nemo (7.)
I played three times against eccles this tournament and he was really really hard to beat. So it was just luck, that i beat him in the last round after 2 defeats in Round 1 and 3 But if we continue the next tourney using this order eccles will have his chance to revenge.
Yes this little mistake had quite a big effect on the first round. But I think we can forgive you ;)!!! I am sorry if I was a little bit rude yesterday in the chat... I was a little bit stressed to get all running... But we have learned at first point that it is very important to give an order in which the games have to be played. The idea with the odd-rule came to late and I did not write it down anywhere upfront or stated it later only in the chat not in the system... I will implement this rule in the system by suggesting whom to play to each player or only allow a player to enter the results of the second game after the first has been entered. Ideas are welcome!!!
Furthermore I would really friendly ask you all to write down your opinions and improvement suggestions to this tournamentstyle and/or the system!
Tasks-collection: - finish the rules and discuss the details - implement games order (odd-rule) - write down the rules in a short and understandable form - implement absentee-function for continous tourneyseries - ...
Liked it so far, though I played unexpectedly bad. Or all the others so good...
I liked it as well and maybe it is a start to a new Tournamentseries.
This post has been edited by Hyko : 27 September 2004 - 04:24 AM
Hi, glad the turnout was so good, looked like a great tourney. Congratulations Hyko, and I see you are creeping up on the statistics table (nice feature) - I MUST play next time now!
As I didn't play in the tourney I can't really comment on it's success. But I think it was a shame that there was not a semi-final and a final. I think they add some real drama to the end of a tourney and are a nice reward for reaching the top 4 places in round 1.
One minor comment, and I don't want to offend you Hyko, but the green and red background colours for the scores in the results page make me not want to read it. They make my eyes go a bit :blink: and a bit :wacko: ! Great job besides that though, nice one.
So, I'm looking forward to the next one, and maybe I'll try and get some practive inbetween. Nice to see you back Lumisa!
SHOES, on Sep 27 2004, 08:18 PM, said:
One minor comment, and I don't want to offend you Hyko, but the green and red background colours for the scores in the results page make me not want to read it. They make my eyes go a bit :blink: and a bit :wacko: ! View Post
You do not offend me. I will try to improve it , colors or spacing or whatever
This post has been edited by Hyko : 27 September 2004 - 04:11 PM
hmm - I do not like this new webboard Ź_Ź but it does have a preview which is nice... and it smilifies my ^^ smilies ^^;;
Hyko, on Sep 27 2004, 09:19 AM, said:
Maybe we have to switch to (TANN) and (TRES) for tournamentannouncement and tournamentresult First of all I want to thank you for co-hosting, too! It was in my opinion a huge outcome for this short announcement period. We were 9 players in the starting field (10 including Helix, who showed not up (as often;))). And I want to thank all others to play and especially all to stay till the end. I was happy to see Lumisa after a long absence on a tournament again.
Hai, hai - let's hope lumisa-san is back a bit more... ^_^
And now allow me to add to yours ^_^
Positions by Start
St End Dif Avg Player 1 4 -3 2.6 Eno 2 2 -- 1.4 eccles 3 1 +2 2.2 Hyko! 4 8 -4 5.6 Zap 5 5 -- 5.2 lumisa 6 6 -- 5.6 Paulina 7 9 -2 8.6 nemo 8 7 +1 7.6 popeye 9 3 +6 5.2 Ryoko
Positions by End
St End Dif Avg Player 3 1 +2 2.2 Hyko! tata!!! Congratulations!!! 2 2 -- 1.4 eccles 9 3 +6 5.2 Ryoko 1 4 -3 2.6 Eno 5 5 -- 5.2 lumisa 6 6 -- 5.6 Paulina 8 7 +1 7.6 popeye 4 8 -4 5.6 Zap 7 9 -2 8.6 nemo
Positions by Average (followed by dif)
St End Dif Avg Player 2 2 -- 1.4 eccles tata!!! Congratulations!!! 3 1 +2 2.2 Hyko! 1 4 -3 2.6 Eno 9 3 +6 5.2 Ryoko 5 5 -- 5.2 lumisa 6 6 -- 5.6 Paulina 4 8 -4 5.6 Zap 8 7 +1 7.6 popeye 7 9 -2 8.6 nemo
So congrats to both eccles and Hyko there ^_~
But we have learned at first point that it is very important to give an order in which the games have to be played. The idea with the odd-rule came to late and I did not write it down anywhere upfront or stated it later only in the chat not in the system... I will implement this rule in the system by suggesting whom to play to each player or only allow a player to enter the results of the second game after the first has been entered. Ideas are welcome!!!
I think suggesting is a good idea - you never know if someone suddenly crashes or reboots - so it may be quicker to play the other person first...
I liked it as well and maybe it is a start to a new Tournamentseries. View Post
I think I will wait for others to have their say before commenting myself ^.^
It's always fascinating to read the statistics surrounding a pop tourney, they show all sorts of neat things (maybe it's just the armchair cricketer in me).... For instance, I was pleased to see I had achieved: (1) First by averages, and (2) Zero differences ONCE AGAIN! Woohoo!
Well I can honestly say it was the best form I'd been in for ages, I managed to hold on to that lead for a great deal of time. It took him three attempts but Hyko managed to come through in the end, so well done to him <extends hearty handshake>
However, I must also give special mention to Eno for being a great sport - in Round 1, during the deciding point, my iChat icon started bouncing at the critical moment and totally chewed up my framerates (how a bouncing icon can use up so many processor cycles remains a mystery to me). So after quitting from iChat and anything else that would've likely interrupted the game, Eno allowed a rematch of that deciding point. I'm sure part of him would have regretted that decision afterward, but I just wanted to say that was very generous of him, and I hope I didn't come across as a sore loser!
Regarding the new tourney structure, I have only two minor criticisms:
I missed the variety of opponents. I faced Eno twice and Hyko three times, although I did face Paulina and Zap once each while waiting between rounds. There wasn't that same sense of completion that comes from working your way through each opponent.
I didn't like waiting so long for the next round, but then since I was at #1 for most of the time, I played only one game per round instead of two. Once or twice I went off to do something else to pass the time, and didn't notice when the next round had started.
Apart from all that, of course, I had an enjoyable time. For those who ever thought "If ONLY I had one more chance, I could've beaten him/her!", the bump race structure certainly allows for those opportunities of revenge It's only a shame I didn't get to face Ryoko... "next time, Gadget, next time..."
Once again, the quantity of responses is simply overwhelming o.O;
eccles, on Sep 28 2004, 02:26 AM, said:
Hopefully though, all the games were quite tight - at least against Hyko-san, ne? If you wanted to get a sense of coming up in the ranks, you could always start next time at #9 ^_~
Having said that, I think in some ways you are right - there won't be the same sense of completion you might get in a classic style tournament - after all, it is a continuous event and not a knockout. I personally think we should carry the bumps-race on on a weekly basis (or some frequent basis) but play say only one or two rounds at a time. We could then also do classic tournaments (though obviously less frequently)
Anybody else have any views on that?
-- perhaps there is some way we could impose a time limit on each game? Unfortunately, that is a problem inherent in the system. Again, if anyone has any suggestions? Otherwise Hyko or myself will just have to make sure you are never #1 again ^~
I think things should get more interesting once people like SHOES come back and everyone "finds their places" in the league - that way although yes, you will probably keep playing the same people more often, they should all be tough games. In my opinion that's much better than lots of games against people way below my skill level anyway, but other people's mileage may vary...
Apart from all that, of course, I had an enjoyable time. For those who ever thought "If ONLY I had one more chance, I could've beaten him/her!", the bump race structure certainly allows for those opportunities of revenge
Exactly - as I said above. It's much more fun to have a few games against someone during a gathering rather than just one which is over too quickly and then the opponent doesn't show up on the tracker for a month. ^.^
It's only a shame I didn't get to face Ryoko... "next time, Gadget, next time..." View Post
Hai hai ^_~
Ryoko, on Sep 30 2004, 01:37 AM, said:
I personally think we should carry the bumps-race on on a weekly basis (or some frequent basis) but play say only one or two rounds at a time. We could then also do classic tournaments (though obviously less frequently)View Post
I disagree with that. The event character of tourneys is what makes them attractive. Everybody who wants to play certain persons once in a while can do so by showing up on the tracker more frequently. (Hello Mr. SHOES, Mr. Eno! :)) Ryoko, I think your view on that topic is a very sportive one, but that's only half of the business. The social aspect of tourneys shouldn't be underestimated, it's fun meeting all the other players, even if skills don't match. Playing against lots of different opponents is also helping the less abled players to improve or at least get a glance of what's possible in the world of Pop-Pop. Last but not least there can be some surprises (n'est-ce pas Ryoko, Ducky?) that I don't want to miss.
Having said that, I think in some ways you are right - there won't be the same sense of completion you might get in a classic style tournament - after all, it is a continuous event and not a knockout. I personally think we should carry the bumps-race on on a weekly basis (or some frequent basis) but play say only one or two rounds at a time. We could then also do classic tournaments (though obviously less frequently)View Post
This points into the direction of a Pop-Pop-league that was brought into discussion some meters (or feet) earlier. I think that's a good idea. Having less frequent classic tourneys isn't as good an idea. I already started discussing the league thing with Hyko, it seems to come down to absentee rules, organisation and timing. Could make up a new topic on this board.
For a bump-race-tourney, three rounds are minimum to justify the effort of bringing a bunch of people from around the globe together at the same time.
-_- perhaps there is some way we could impose a time limit on each game? View Post
I don't see a way to establish a time-limit for rounds as I know only ONE person that is able to play pop AND read (e.g. a clock) at the same time! Maybe 2 wins out of three would do instead.
I'd really go for having classic and bump-race tourneys alternating, say every two to three weeks. Or, if technical possible, establish a Bump-o-Matic Pop-Race-LeagueŠ and have lots of classic tourneys in addition.
This post has been edited by popeye : 30 September 2004 - 12:58 PM
popeye, on Sep 30 2004, 10:15 AM, said:
I disagree with that. The event character of tourneys is what makes them attractive. Everybody who wants to play certain persons once in a while can do so by showing up on the tracker more frequently. (Hello Mr. SHOES, Mr. Eno! :))
I think the whole idea of continuing this is that it does bring more people onto the tracker more often, thus stopping it from looking quite so dead. Almost nobody spends any time on it otherwise (with the exception mainly of people who have already posted in this topic). The league system does not require everyone to play each round - and encourages new people to join whenever they want. If we were to play fewer rounds, then whilst maybe some people might not be bothered (although then their positions will slip) or be able to make every event; chances are they will try to make it because it will not involve taking up nearly so much time. They could always leave after one round if they so wished.
Ryoko, I think your view on that topic is a very sportive one, but that's only half of the business. The social aspect of tourneys shouldn't be underestimated, it's fun meeting all the other players, even if skills don't match. Playing against lots of different opponents is also helping the less abled players to improve or at least get a glance of what's possible in the world of Pop-Pop.
Talking a lot during tournaments is generally bad because it slows down the process for everyone (unless you have finished al your games). People can always (and often do) stay on and chat afterwards if they wish. ^^ I agree it is useful to meet lots of new players but I disagree that all of them will want to be repeatedly thrashed by lots of veterans. It can be very demoralising! (and incidentally, nemo-san, you do not suck; we just practice more ^^;; )
Last but not least there can be some surprises (n'est-ce pas Ryoko, Ducky?) that I don't want to miss.
Why is that a surprise?! -.-* Please stop inferring things about me in side-comments, you did that in the results section too. Shoes-san, hyko-san, and eccles-san at least can all beat me easily if they are on form. Having only ever played that one round against Ducky, why should it be a surprise if he came top of his side that he beat me?
For a bump-race-tourney, three rounds are minimum to justify the effort of bringing a bunch of people from around the globe together at the same time. (...) I'd really go for having classic and bump-race tourneys alternating, say every two to three weeks. Or, if technical possible, establish a Bump-o-Matic Pop-Race-LeagueŠ and have lots of classic tourneys in addition.
You seem to be contradicting what you said in your first paragraph here. I merely meant (and agree with you entirely) that 'classic' tournaments ought to be considered an event, and therefore only happen at a frequency where that is the case. (in other words, they are less frequent than league gatherings). The question is what the correct frequency is...
Tatoeba dokomade modorebaii? Oshiete Subete wa Itami wo tomonauhodo azayaka.
We all had that discussion a long time ago with anklebiter-san, and to be fair he was in some ways correct to try and hold them more frequently than the majority wanted -- namely because it at least kept people on the tracker (something, as I said, I would like to see happen with the league, if possible). He also kept the board alive to a certain extent, though in some cases only with posts that might questionably be better off having been left unsaid.
Regardless, one topic that was mentioned at the time was the fact that people wanted a long time between tournaments to plan ahead for them. However, history shows that (with one notable exception) even with plenty of time, the turnout was never significantly higher than when the tournaments were more frequent. Also, the response rate from people to the posted topics (even those specifically asking for when they are free) was often lower than the number of frames per second in a third-rate c-class anime ^_^;; (and still is). I do not intend to be (or sound) 'holier than thou' about responding to tournament requests, I almost never do because (as I have said afore often enough) I almost never know whether I can make it or not until the day itself at the earliest. I suspect this is the same for most people, but at least I have said it.
So, hence the idea of a league springing out of what to do about tournaments that got more people and took too long. It is just an experiment, but the initial discussions were for it to be as a league, and the rules were made as such. That's what the bumps race is in real life after all - you only row one round a day in that! Yet somehow, despite only happening one week each year (and only for four days of that week!), 2000 or so people are ready to train for a good half year before hand (if not constantly all year round) to participate. There, it can be all be over in under ten seconds each day, and people enjoy it. True, it is not exactly my cup of tea, but I will still go and watch. ^_^;
So I dispute your three round minimum idea, along with other ideas for knockouts from the league etc. The league (if it is continued) is not a tournament per se, rather a frequent gathering of around 60% (hopefully more) of the players that are still out there. An attempt to try and show some of the new people who do occasionally show up that there are actually other people out there. From my own entirely selfish point of view - chances are that I might be able to make more gatherings if they are going to be short! ^_^
Of course, this is not to say that longer league matches like the one we just did cannot happen, and (of course) tournaments (in the 'classic' sense) should definitely continue on as well. ^_^ I would just like to see players on and playing on a more frequent basis. I would like to view this topic in five hours time, when I need to be up and at work, and see someone (preferably new) has replied to this post. I would like to view the tracker and see four other people already online. I would like to view this board and pretend I did not see that other topic by Isbiten7 with eighteen views and only two responses... Surely another ten people can come out and say 'yes, I play too'. Or are we all too lazy?
It might give this disgustingly apathetic board a bit of hope. And this dying game.
(/rant)
I don't see a way to establish a time-limit for rounds as I know only ONE person that is able to play pop AND read (e.g. a clock) at the same time!
see comment above re ONE person. However I think you are right, in that any sort of enforcement of a time limit is probably doomed to failure... I cannot see a way it would work either - especially since you might get mouse problems, disconnects and other fun happening during the limit too.
Maybe 2 wins out of three would do instead. View Post
Two rounds is definitely a thought, though it might cause a rethink in the shuffling rules between rounds? I suppose it is worth considering though ^.^
Ryoko, on Oct 1 2004, 01:47 AM, said:
Please stop inferring things about me in side-comments, you did that in the results section too.
@Ryoko: I started this thread because Hyko and I hosted the last tourney. My part was announcing it and also posting the results into this forum. I tried to be little funny to keep people interested and bring things into rolling, especially to start a discussion about the bump-race, a possible league, etc. It seems that I was a bit too successfull as the discussion rolls off into a direction that I did not intend. If I offended you somehow let me put clear: That was not my intention.
Kitsukazu ni kaketa kanjou hiroi atsumete Yurushi wo motometara want to apoplogize for it: go-men nasai, Ryoko-san (Hope that translates well, if not please tell me, my knowledge of Japanese equals zero :))
Please don't say that, I think that's way far too negative.
@all: For those who are interested I'd propose to start a new thread about how a Bump-o-Matic Pop-Race-LeagueŠ could look like. Consistant of preferably short posts on rules and opinions, enabling people who are new to the discussion to oversee it and bring in their thoughts and suggestions. To hand over initiative to others I won't start it (would be my third thread in a row).
@popeye Your Japanese is very good, but it sounds better when Bana is performing. ^~ Good to see you did not fall into a light sleep ne? Regarding the offense, I just wish you wouldn't do it, I have asked you before... ^^ Anyway, of course I forgive you, popeye-san, so you have your redemption. Minna-san, Sumimasen - it was a late night rant...
Yes, I did regret No, you did'nt come across as a sore loser, the iChat problem could hit everyone, me included, so I only invested in the future
I think it was a funny and exciting tourney at all and I look forward to a lot of bump races (and maybe to an inter-tourney league ).
Eno
This post has been edited by Eno : 02 October 2004 - 03:14 AM
View Post
me??
very late response i know, but better late than never. i had a great time, thanks for hosting... and congratulations hyko!! (who actually might have been the winner still after no matter how many rounds...) i should definitely get back into the pop-pop business!
1 User(s) are browsing this forum (0 Guests and 0 Anonymous wow, what has happened to the board?
This post has been edited by lumisa : 06 October 2004 - 08:11 AM
That's right, kids... I'm awful at this game.
nemo, on Oct 10 2004, 12:39 PM, said:
Don't say that, you just may have a pop-crisis! Get on the tracker, let's overcome it!
lumisa, on Oct 6 2004, 03:05 PM, said:
How true, this post is explicitly to change that. Seems nobody wants to get involved with the bump-race-rule-discussion-thing. Scared? Too busy? Not Interested? Or does it need some personal fight, are we all too polite? Who knows...
Anyway, since there is no discusssion going on, I'd go for another try. Let's have a second Bump-o-Matic Pop-RaceŠ to see how things work out in an ongoing battle! How's that? Hosts? (No answers required, but welcome)
popeye, on Oct 11 2004, 08:04 PM, said:
Don't say that, you just may have a pop-crisis! Get on the tracker, let's overcome it! How true, this post is explicitly to change that. Seems nobody wants to get involved with the bump-race-rule-discussion-thing. Scared? Too busy? Not Interested? Or does it need some personal fight, are we all too polite? Who knows...
Anyway, since there is no discusssion going on, I'd go for another try. Let's have a second Bump-o-Matic Pop-RaceŠ to see how things work out in an ongoing battle! How's that? Hosts? (No answers required, but welcome) View Post
What do you think about a sunday morning or midday tournament? Something around 9am GMT or so. Even the player(s) with their computer mice above their heads should be able to join... any opinion, anyone?
Hyko, on Oct 11 2004, 10:42 PM, said:
Great! I'd propose sunday 24th, 10am GMT (as I'll be out of order next sunday morning, possibly with mice inside my head :blink:) Is that too late for potential other-side-of-the-planet-players?
popeye, on Oct 11 2004, 09:19 PM, said:
Great! I'd propose sunday 24th, 10am GMT (as I'll be out of order next sunday morning, possibly with mice inside my head :blink:) Is that too late for potential other-side-of-the-planet-players? View Post
That proposed time of Sunday morning 10am GMT translates to 8pm Sunday evening here in Oz... I must confess that at that time I will be at evening church, and won't be home until 8.30pm so I would not be able to make the start of the tourney. Perhaps 11am GMT is not too unreasonable? Or sometime just after lunch?
Even though I'm grateful that you guys are considerate of me & my timezone - and I would love to play if I can make it - please don't ever feel that the tourney can't possibly go on if I'm not there...