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Originally posted by Firebird: **Bah, I'll do it.
Though I am still a fervent Rebel supporter, you really have to look at it in real-life terms. The Rebellion is opposing the Confederation militantly, trying to invade it instead of find a more peaceful way to get their ways (there are a number of diplomatic solutions they could at least have tried). Not only that, they often resort to terrorism and attacking of innocent traders to try to disrupt Confederate commerce, which isn't exactly a "good" thing to do. You can't look at it all one-sided like that; though the Rebels defend freedom, they don't really push it all the way.
You might argue that the Rebels have to do what they do to overthrow the Confederation, but the truth is, they've just locked the galaxy into a galactic civil war that is bound to claim millions of lives and last for dozens of years with little progress for them. In short, war is not the solution. It just makes computer games FAR more interesting.
**
Basically, from what I've sorted out of the years I've played Escape Velocity, it sounds like it was political in the beginning. Knowing the Confederation, they would have certainly turned down any attempts of independence, simply because it lessened their grasp on galactic power. War is often the only answer, and at this very moment, it is in the Middle East.
Take the American Civil War of the mid 1800s for example. For a few decades, citizens of the south had presented their rights to congress, and even exposed the federal government's denial of the United States Constitution. As far as the slavery issue was concerned, I was opposed to it. But the Southerners had far more reason to fight their former government that the North. After reading over the Amendments, it was then that I realized how many the North were denying to their southern friends. EV is just a technical side of a civil war. In my few, war was the last resort for the Rebellion, as we already know the Confederation would never agree to peaceful terms between the two sides.
I hate war, and wouldn't wish it on anybody, but it sometimes is your only choice (even in computer games :p). I'd gladly go to war if it came to that and the reasons were good...
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Originally posted by Firebird: **Liar. You can't take out all those Confed navy bases that fast.
One must take into consideration that it is posible when one flies either a fully decked out Orion Battleship or a captured Alien C&C; command ship...
Oh and good point on the Rebellion/Confederation post. You too Captain Skyblade.
Whitehawk
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I'm currently playing Heart of Darkness in the Empire series. If you like that moral quagmire trying to figure out which side is "right", it's a good plug. The Empire in this plug is ruthlessly expansionist, as expected. However, the Rebels do questionable acts as well: destroying civilian transports or setting up attacks on their friends in order to gain support against a foe.
Other goods plugs include Pale, New Horizons (a favorite), and (EVGE+EV MAGMA) if you like that 3-D kind of look.
I'm a total sucker for the angled stuff. (..to dream about a 3-d version of Empire....)
Originally posted by Captain Skyblade: Knowing the Confederation, they would have certainly turned down any attempts of independence, simply because it lessened their grasp on galactic power. ... In my few, war was the last resort for the Rebellion, as we already know the Confederation would never agree to peaceful terms between the two sides.
Since the Rebellion's stated goal is the destruction of the Confederation, not independence from it, I don't see how either of these are meaningful, as peaceful coexistence is not what the Rebellion wants. The same goes for any comparisons to the United States Revolutionary and Civil Wars.
In addition, this goal of destruction does not take into account the wishes of the people who appear to be perfectly happy living in the Confederation, so "fighting for galactic freedom" does not describe what they are doing. Simply put, they don't like the people who are running the galaxy and evidently think they should be running the galaxy instead.
Originally posted by David Arthur: **Since the Rebellion's stated goal is the destruction of the Confederation, not independence from it, I don't see how either of these are meaningful, as peaceful coexistence is not what the Rebellion wants. The same goes for any comparisons to the United States Revolutionary and Civil Wars.
In addition, this goal of destruction does not take into account the wishes of the people who appear to be perfectly happy living in the Confederation, so "fighting for galactic freedom" does not describe what they are doing. Simply put, they don't like the people who are running the galaxy and evidently think they should be running the galaxy instead.**
The intro text of Escape Velocity seems to deny your points. Even if the Rebellion is viewed as a corrupt government in itself, why should the Confederation still be the dominate government? Both have their problems, and I believe the Confederation's are far more serious. They aren't the "royal defenders of the core worlds," they are the "selfish, keep-it-all" type. I read that the Confederation was "unwilling to give up its power" following the Great War within the intro text. Correct?
Bah, this is fun. Defending things that don't even exist.
Originally posted by Captain Skyblade: Bah, this is fun. Defending things that don't even exist.
Just as long as everyone realizes that, I won't step in with a "it's just a game" quote.
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Originally posted by EVula: **Just as long as everyone realizes that, I won't step in with a "it's just a game" quote.;)
Sounds fair enough.
Originally posted by Captain Skyblade: They aren't the "royal defenders of the core worlds," they are the "selfish, keep-it-all" type. I read that the Confederation was "unwilling to give up its power" following the Great War within the intro text.
It says that the Confederation was reluctant to give up its power after the Great War, but since when are governments supposed to be eager to give up their power? If I went over to Ottawa, London, Washington, Paris, Berlin, or any other capital and asked the government there to give up its power, what do you think the answer would be?
Originally posted by Captain Skyblade: The intro text of Escape Velocity seems to deny your points.
As I've said before, I place little stock in the value judgements of the intro text. Where I come from, it's generally agreed that if what you see yourself and what you're told are contradictory, what you see yourself should take precedence over what you're told.
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Originally posted by David Arthur: **As I've said before, I place little stock in the value judgements of the intro text. Where I come from, it's generally agreed that if what you see yourself and what you're told are contradictory, what you see yourself should take precedence over what you're told.
Then what is wrong with me believing the intro text (it is, after all, the storyline) and making a few of my own assumptions? Heh.
A Confederation, from what a nearby dictionary tells me, is a temporary alliance between governments / places to fight or reach a common goal or cause. That certainly doesn't sound like EV Confederation's intentions... They intend on keeping what they have.
You're correct about the power issue. No government is going to just give up. That's why the Confederation must fall for failing to "stick to the rules."
Originally posted by Captain Skyblade: Then what is wrong with me believing the intro text (it is, after all, the storyline)
It's what a faceless narrator tells you is the storyline, but it doesn't agree with what I've seen of the behaviour of the two governments ingame.
Originally posted by Captain Skyblade: A Confederation, from what a nearby dictionary tells me, is a temporary alliance between governments / places to fight or reach a common goal or cause. That certainly doesn't sound like EV Confederation's intentions... They intend on keeping what they have.
The fact that a group intended to be temporary when it came together does not mean it is forever bound to that idea. The United States was originally intended to be a temporary alliance against the British, but today it's not only together, but allied with the British.
Anyway, the Confederation doesn't seem to have had any problem with some of its member worlds dropping out, as it have quite a peaceful trading relationship with the independent worlds. It seems to me that the continued existence of the Confederation can have been caused only by the majority of members not wanting to return to independence.
I hate to break up the debating duo for a minute, but I would suggest you read Phil's story Zero Moment in the Chronicles section. That is if you didn't read it already.
Also here's a thought. For a moment, say the Confederation is a corrupt or near-corrupt government and do extreme things. Remember however that not every senator that sits on the Senate or every governor is the same. Also come to the conclusion that not every officer, crewer, soldier or member of the Confederation Navy or the Confederation Army are corrupt. Some captains would see it their duties that should a fellow captain abuse their powers be brought to justice.
As well, say the Rebellion are the 'good guys' of the civil war. That doesn't mean their Navy or Army personel are alll devouted to the cause of justice and liberty above all else. Some could seek to abuse their own power or be blinded by the Cause. New Horizon is some proof of this in the form of the T.R.D.F faction.
Pale brings to light a more down to earth veiw of the powers. If you were fighting a war, would you not seek any means of winning. The Rebellion sought doing this by gaining support from Pale, while only having a foothold in a few systems, had great influence. When the ploy was discovered that Rebellion SEAL was behind the terriost group that they had hoped would leave to believe the Confederation was behind the thing and draw an ally, the end result was the Pale-Palshife war.
Besides, remember the maxim, "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutly." It goes the same for the Rebellion as it does for the Confederation.