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WHEN are you guy from Ambrosia goin to relaes the open source of AVARA... I can't wait... PLEASE... HELP... ME!!!!!!
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Quote
Originally posted by Simon Menke: **WHEN are you guy from Ambrosia goin to relaes the open source of AVARA... **
We have no current plans to do this.
------------------ Andrew Welch / el Presidente / Ambrosia Software, Inc. (url="http://"http://www.AmbrosiaSW.com/~andrew/")http://www.AmbrosiaSW.com/~andrew/(/url)
Andrew, either you are a flat out liar, or some fat idiot who is too layze to get off your ass and let somone who cares try and make something out of Avara again... Release the damn code man! It's not like you will loose money! According to your statistics, Avara never made any money, so it's not like you would be killing your company to release the code! Don't bother arguing, just release the code!
-LagMarine "I will kill you with my extreem lag!"-
Brilliant idea! Anger Andrew into releasing the code! I'm sure with the insults he'll be all the more inclined to release it. Keep it up!
------------------ Ā= Timinator =Ā
| Student | Cal Poly, SLO | Computer Engineering
hehe, I wonder if Lagmarine has recieved a warning (or maybe a threat) in his inbox from andrew yet...
------------------ (url="http://"http://pages.hotbot.com/games/ambjorn/index.html")1000 Worlds(/url) (url="http://"http://www.AmbrosiaSW.com/webboard/Forum10/HTML/001524.html")The Tides of War(/url) (url="http://"http://www.ohhla.com")The Original Hip-Hop Lyrics Archive(/url) Hip Hop Recomendation of the week: Dead Prez - Let's Get Free
Originally posted by LagMarine: **Andrew, either you are a flat out liar, or some fat idiot who is too layze to get off your ass and let somone who cares try and make something out of Avara again... Release the damn code man! It's not like you will loose money! According to your statistics, Avara never made any money, so it's not like you would be killing your company to release the code! Don't bother arguing, just release the code!
-LagMarine "I will kill you with my extreem lag!"-**
Gee, I'm very inclined to do whatever you ask now that you've been so respectful and courteous. I was especially swayed by your well-thought-out comments on who is qualified to actually do something with the code, and the direction it would take.
In summary, I'm glad you see that we are obliged to do whatever you wish with our property, and thank you for presenting a persausive argument to that effect.
el presidente,
i understand what lagmarine is saying, but i think he could have put it a little nicer than that. the point is, we have been having discussions with juri about which license to use for the source code (as if you didnt know). we know you have plans to do it......juri said that he submitted his plans to you. if your under some sort of weird NDA, then at least say so. "We have no current plans to do this." doesnt show anything except that you arent telling us what we know. If you did release the source code....well......there many many posts from people ranging from how to give credit to ambrosia to what new things we could implement. if you choose not to, fine; but i think you would be leaving a whole community of avara fans out. people that currently play avara have thought up many ideas about how to make a similar game to avara without any source code, and if that's what it takes..........
densak
Originally posted by d e n s a k: **If you did release the source code....well......there many many posts from people ranging from how to give credit to ambrosia to what new things we could implement. if you choose not to, fine; but i think you would be leaving a whole community of avara fans out. people that currently play avara have thought up many ideas about how to make a similar game to avara without any source code, and if that's what it takes..........
densak**
Something you fail to understand is that "releasing source code" is a privledge, not a right. If we choose to do so, that's our choice -- whining and bitching about it will get you absolutely nowhere.
We would be open to releasing the code if we actually were convinced it would do more good than harm. Seeing how immature and incapable the people who keep requesting the source code seem to be, we see no compelling reason to release the source code.
Despite what anyone tells, you, it will create support issues for us, even if we clearly say everywhere that we're not supporting it. People will see "Avara", perhaps play a buggy or malicious trojan version of it, and complain to us about it. This is a very real issue, and something you may not fully understand from your perspective.
Secondly, releasing source code doesn't mean there's anyone qualified to actually do anything with it. Bungie released the Marathon source code, and the project is a real mess right now, with no decent releases anywhere in sight.
Finally, there are real risks to the few people who do still play Avara, in terms of hacking and client fragmentation. Quake was detrimentally affected when the source code was released, the user base was fragmented (pun unintentional) by disparate (often buggy) versions.
To summarize, every immature attack on me or Ambrosia to release the source code will be viewed as the infantile whining that it is. If you present a cogent argument for releasing the source code, along with a list of people who want to work on it (and their qualifications), it'd serve you much better.
(This message has been edited by andrew (edited 10-25-2000).)
So what you are saying is that if there are, per say, 5 people who meet your "qualifications", you will open the source? Wouldn't that defeat the purpose? No matter what, you go open with it, any idiot who wants to can make there own "version". Like I have said before, what I think you should do is, sell the rights to another software company, so that they can do something with it, since Ambrosia seems to be so against the idea... The reason people are getting so upset is because hey think this is there only chance to have another Avara, not becuase they want there "own version". If you sell it to another company, you can at least make a little more money off of it, plus the Avarians would get what they want, a second version. Please Andrew, at least consider what I have said...
------------------ ---Kyle "Vader" Blessing--- "May the force be with you."
Originally posted by Vader: **So what you are saying is that if there are, per say, 5 people who meet your "qualifications", you will open the source? Wouldn't that defeat the purpose? No matter what, you go open with it, any idiot who wants to can make there own "version". **
There are many OpenSource projects out there that have turned into miserable failures; the most prominent of which is probably the "Mozilla" project. There are also some excellent success stories for OpenSource projects.
What those successful project all have in common is a core set of project leads who are skilled and motivated to make the project succeed. Without that, the source code is merely a curiosity for people to hack around with; don't expect to see it moving forward.
I had someone mail me, asking to be the "lead" of the Avara open source project. It turned out that his developmental experience was limited to RealBasic and AppleScript. I'm not putting down either of these languages, but this person is not capable of leading a project like Avara.
It would be pointless, and it could very well create support issues for us (as I noted earlier), as well as further fragmenting the Avara gaming community (as in what happened to Quake).
I see people tossing "OpenSource" around like the latest buzzword, without realizing the realities. For instance, if we (Ambrosia) were to work on a new version of Avara, odds are very, very good that we'd not use any of the original Avara source.
Why? Because some of the changes we'd want to make are inherent limitations in the current Avara engine; often its better to just start fresh, if you want to add things like better Internet play, OpenGL support, etc.
Yet people constantly beg for the source code to Avara, as if once they get it, the hard realities will all just melt away, and they'll magically be able to make a game with the source that they are incapable of without it.
I don't buy it.
Originally posted by Vader: **Like I have said before, what I think you should do is, sell the rights to another software company, so that they can do something with it, since Ambrosia seems to be so against the idea... The reason people are getting so upset is because hey think this is there only chance to have another Avara, not because they want there "own version". If you sell it to another company, you can at least make a little more money off of it, plus the Avarians would get what they want, a second version. Please Andrew, at least consider what I have said... **
I'd like to point out that us releasing the source code as OpenSource is almost certain to NOT give people what they want; unless qualified people are found, you aren't going to see a new version of Avara. You're much more likely to see a lot of people come up with all sorts of crazy ideas, with no one able to implement them, causing the project to flounder and degrade to in-fighting.
But fine with me -- find me a company who's willing to buy the product from us (and the source code), and we'll talk (after approval from Juri of course).
(This message has been edited by andrew (edited 10-26-2000).)
...and with that, I'm closing this topic and moving to the Avara web board, where it really should be...
Originally posted by andrew: **...and with that, I'm closing this topic and moving to the Avara web board, where it really should be...
**
...and it shall rot away in silence...
Originally posted by Avatara: **...and it shall rot away in silence...
Aren't you supposed to be polite about these things, being a moderator and all?
------------------ The sentient Glue Bubble waves to everyone.
Originally posted by theGlueBubble: **Aren't you supposed to be polite about these things, being a moderator and all?;)
I chose to view the statement as "it shall rot away in silence" to be that it shoudl put an END to the seemly undieable thought that an Avara 2 is "due" anyone.
In that context, it should rot in silence.
------------------ When you're right 90% of the time, you can disregard the other 3%
Andrew, I am dissapointed in you. I understand your opinion that if Avara's source code was released, it would create a support nightmare. This can be easily solved with some creative work to make avara.org or avara.net have a JAVA based support system, for example. You say we have no organized programming group? well, as of now we dont. But, however, Aftershock was an example of what we can do without a corporate umbilical cord. As for legal problems, well, the Artistic support liscense is a very good setup for releasing Avara. Marathon is a mess? So what? we can do better with Avara, since there are already some good programmers, the AS programmers, and those of us Avara fans who have taken initiative to learn these skills. We_have_already_made_a_mod. We are fully capable of making a new Avara project. As for why I am dissapointed, it is because you had a chance to preserve something of the Mac gaming community here. Take a look at the PC gaming world. Millions of gamers, mindlessly buying whatever new game comes out. Millions of gamers, spoiled by the huge gaming companies. But no. We are Macintosh users, and we get off our lazy behinds. Even if the largest gaming companies turn our backs on us, even if Jobs and Apple are strarting to make Apple a niche market by making simplistic computers with no expanision capability, we stand by our principles. -Ragnarok
snik snik snik !!!
------------------ simon@polygoon.com
Originally posted by Ragnarok: ** You say we have no organized programming group? well, as of now we dont. But, however, Aftershock was an example of what we can do without a corporate umbilical cord. ...there are already some good programmers, the AS programmers, and those of us Avara fans who have taken initiative to learn these skills. We_have_already_made_a_mod. We are fully capable of making a new Avara project. -Ragnarok**
There's a world of difference between hacking together something with ResEdit, and writing a 3D game in C. If you can't understand that, well, nothing I can say will persaude you... continue to be disappointed in me.
quote: There's a world of difference between hacking together something with ResEdit, and writing a 3D game in C. If you can't understand that, well, nothing I can say will persaude you... continue to be disappointed in me.
But what if.... we do understand C...? i have actually done some c programming for the mac and think I could work out the code and do something good... you just have to thrust somebody, that you know, and can guarantee progress.... Don't let it be opensource... let someone responsible get it and make him responsible of it...
------------------ ------ Remember - it's never far from shot to kill ulrik@avara.net
Andrew, you haven't addressed the e-mails Juri says he's sent you. Besides, there are inexperienced programmers that would like to see how a true 3-D game works, and they won't be scrambling for cruddy versions.
Norinel
Andrew, or someone knowledgeable: I actually could care less about open-source Avara. If Avara were anymore difficult to run (machine-wise), then my LAN parties wouldn't be very big. What I would like is for someone to tell me how difficult it would be to up the max-players to say ten or twelve? Really, is it that hard? I would really like that one small change.
------------------ "Get with the krizapee taste of Rocket Fuel malt liqueur. Rocket Fuel's got the upstate prison flavor that keeps you ugly all night. So when you wanna get sick, remember: Nothing makes your feet stank like Rocket Fuel malt liquer. Damn! it's krizapee."