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I know that Coldstone is still in Beta and you really don't want to give out information because it could change, but one critical point that many are interested in and is vital to preparation for this excellent tool is party and character development. Can we create parties? How will they work together? Will they all show up on the main screen? How many members in all? How many active members (fighting)? Can you form groups? How will you switch between them? Will they affect the world with charisma? Can they perform group actions to navigate a dungeon a la Final Fantasy 3? I am hoping for an unlimited member count, with a screen to organize parties and such, with charasma values and group actions. Please answer as many as possible. ~Saphfire
I'm stuck debating whether or not I'm allowed to answer this. Also, my information will be out-of-date soon as b3 is almost out.
------------------ "I'm a controversial figure. My friends either dislike me or hate me."
Really, why all the secrecy? You tell us to prepare for the engine, to finish our plots, but that is near impossible if we don't know the environment we will be engaging in. Should our story contain multiple characters or not? This pact of silence, designed to protect the viewers from making inaccurate assumptions based on beta works, ends up harming them even more by making them chose their own assumptions, based on no hard evidence at all. I'm not asking how the final engine will be, because I know it is not set in stone; I am merely asking about these features in beta 2. Please lift the veil of secrecy that repels so many good questions. ~Saphfire
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Originally posted by saphfire: Really, why all the secrecy? You tell us to prepare for the engine, to finish our plots, but that is near impossible if we don't know the environment we will be engaging in. Should our story contain multiple characters or not? This pact of silence, designed to protect the viewers from making inaccurate assumptions based on beta works, ends up harming them even more by making them chose their own assumptions, based on no hard evidence at all. I'm not asking how the final engine will be, because I know it is not set in stone; I am merely asking about these features in beta 2. Please lift the veil of secrecy that repels so many good questions. ~Saphfire
There is no 'veil of secrecy'. The fact is simply this: The beta testers do not know if the 'release' version of Coldstone will support multiple PC's. It will of course support multiple NPC's.
Whether or not B2 supports multiple PC's is of no matter. What does matter is what Dee and Andrew decide the final 'feature set' to be for Coldstone. Beta testers do not know this.
I can and will tell you this: There is continuing (sometimes heated) discussion, both public and private, on the issues of Coldstone having realtime vs. turn based battles and whether there should be a single protagonist with helpers or if there should be a 'democratic' collection of 'equal' PC's.
There has been no (to my knowledge) determination from Andrew or Dee on a 'final' selection for the release version of Coldstone.
My best advice to you and anyone else 'itching' to get started is to plan, plot and organize a graphically simple game of relatively small size and scope that leads the player into and through the story by 'events' and 'player choice' actions. This is not the same as writing a short story or novel for English class. It is more like writing a play in which the 'player' is the principal actor and the 'only' actor that has some freedom of choice in the unfolding of the play. Everything else follows the script(s).
If you do this, then you can later refine and hone the events and choices in your game to fit the actual 'features' included in the final release of Coldstone. As an example of this consider the situation where your PC meets an old crone up on a barren hill top. Your event can first (or later) contain various 'if-then' branches to check for what 'race' or 'class' of PC is there and also check for 'how many'. Various fun filled activities can then ensue depending on the 'features' of Coldstone.
It is my personal feeling that it is not the graphics or animation that determines whether on not someone finishes and recommends an RPG, but the quality of the 'coding' of the events, activities, choices and puzzles within the storyline and whether or not the storyline 'hooks' the player quickly.
Concentrate on your 'events' and actions... How the player is led into and through the game. How necessary info is to be revealed to the player and in what order. Most RPG players don't like to 'read' long pieces of monologue or pages of or scrolling text... unless there is a way for the player to 'save' them for later perusal.
Do make your preferences for Coldstone Final known...
It is my belief that the deepest, plot-twisting, complex puzzled, RPG is best supported with turn-based battles, multiple PC's, and the ability of the player to actually temporarily switch party members at different times and places in the game in progress.
My reason for preferring turn based over real time battles is that I personally don't play RPG's for the battles. Real time battles become the focus instead of another form of puzzle or challenge to overcome using more than just quick reflexes and luck.
Skip
------------------ ...it wasn't me...
I fully agree with skip in his preferences. Although, realtime battles wouldn't be bad, per se, I do not want to turn them into a Diablo, Zelda (in the future, perhaps), or Baldur's Gate (as much as I loved the game). I prefer more the strategic active time battles of the Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy series games. As for party development, multiple PCs are CRUCIAL to many RPGs, all from my point, and I wouldnt' waste my time with my current project without the support of this feature. If party members are not allowed, I must simply move to the Zelda clone I mentioned above, but this is not what I want. Please, at least give us a choice, if not in the full release, in a plug-in SHORTLY thereafter. ~Saphfire
ok I don't think "fighting scenes" are gonna be allowed(final fantasy 7), I mean didn't they decide it would be realtime? I know it's not a permanent decision, but that's the way I see it. And fighting scenes are the least realistic of all of the battle types. Even the "perfected" one in final fantasy 7 had my characters standing there doing nothing while one attacked. It looked really hokey. "I'm gonna run up there and slice em while you stand back and look like a dolt" and the huge circles for shadows has to be changed. I'm sorry, It just can't be allowed.
------------------ "You will suffer! You will all suffer!" -Jon Irenicus speaking to the Cowled Wizards
If I see one more bloody thread debating the battle systems or parties I'm gonna lock it. You have all been warned.
------------------ Friction leads to fire, you could get burned, How much ink I just injected is none of your concern, Unless your on terms of understanding the omega, He controlls the mix so you can inherit the heater.
Originally posted by the Necromicon: **If I see one more bloody thread debating the battle systems or parties I'm gonna lock it. You have all been warned.
**
Why, because we actually care about the product we're following? If you want the battles to be put to rest, give us answers, or give us a choice! Seeing as there ARE so many different views on how the battles should be fought and characters to be played, there SHOULD be freedom to choose your own. CGE won't satisfy everyone, but views on either side should be equally heard. With so many people on the same boat, we really do need extra freedom to make the games different. If not, it just seems like of Pillars of Garundell expansion.
~Saphfire
------------------
Shut up you ****ing moderator people should be allowed to discuss what they want however many times they ****ing want to. Also can you get back to the ****ing secrecy it was at least going ****ing somewhere. God how I hate y'all (except those with minus kama). Now you should just tell us the answer no ****ing secrecy.
------------------ dead
Originally posted by death_himself: **Shut up you ****ing moderator people should be allowed to discuss what they want however many times they ****ing want to. Also can you get back to the ****ing secrecy it was at least going ****ing somewhere. God how I hate y'all (except those with minus kama). Now you should just tell us the answer no ****ing secrecy.
Being able to post to this web board is a priviledge, not a right. You're about to lose that priviledge.
------------------ Andrew Welch / el Presidente / Ambrosia Software, Inc. Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.
Originally posted by saphfire: **Why, because we actually care about the product we're following? If you want the battles to be put to rest, give us answers, or give us a choice! Seeing as there ARE so many different views on how the battles should be fought and characters to be played, there SHOULD be freedom to choose your own. CGE won't satisfy everyone, but views on either side should be equally heard. With so many people on the same boat, we really do need extra freedom to make the games different. If not, it just seems like of Pillars of Garundell expansion. **
There will be exactly one battle system in Coldstone when we ship it; it will be something that we decided is the best balance available. People will bitch about it no matter what: some people will hate it, others will love it.
I'm just letting you know right now, there will not be the option to choose the battle system, so don't expect that there will be.
Thanks, Andrew. Your answer clears a lot of things up, so we direct people to worry/complain/etc about other things.
------------------ People who claim the sky is falling obviously aren't aware the earth is falling, too.
I think parties are essential, i refer back to excellent RPGs such as baulders gate. I think the battle system should be real-time, it adds to the effect and realism of what makes the game
------------------ Yes my frige is running..why?, oh OH MY GOD ITS ESCAPED AGAIN!
Who says realism is a good thing? The whole purpose of the gaming platform is an escape from reality, to escape the physics of real-life. Although I cannot stress how much I agree that parties are essential, I am still wary of real-time battles (I honestly don't like the Diablo/Baldur's Gate fighting styles). However, since I am still unclear as to the battle system and there will be no choice anyway, it doesn't really matter what I think.
I was going to post this to the beta list a while ago, but decided not to. So now I post it here with a few additions:
Without going into deep philosophy, I would like to ask "What is 'reality'?"
Has anyone here ever actually participated in phsyical 'combat', even if fake? I was an avid 'boffer' in college (that is, take a pvc pipe, cover with foam insulation and duct tape, and use it as a sparring weapon), which lends a somewhat different perspective to melee combat.
Yes, the thought cloud created by real-time combat systems does impede the cold, calculated strategies allowed by turn-based systems, but remember that we are dealing with a computer. Hitting the 'attack' button not the same as actually swinging a sword or polearm.
Until better interfaces and AI develop, the player is limited to the options the programmer gives them. Clicking to attack is not the same thing as the sub-thought flow that develops for split-second decisions on blocking, attacking high, attacking low or improvising in some other manner. Clicking the mouse to attack is moving your finger and forearm. Thought process is reduced to "Where's something to kill?" This is typically known as Hack & Slash.
If you've ever fired a real gun, you also know about recoil. This is simulated in some games (Oni, for one), but generally ignored. I'm guessing that many games don't use recoil because players find it too frustrating. The game ignores aspects of reality for a more enjoyable experience.
Also, anyone who's ever been paintballing probably knows how hard it is to actually hit something with an imitation rifle. Shooting from the hip? Forget it. You can't very well run around with your eyes to the gun sights, either. The target sights in Quake3/Unreal Tournament? Real? Ha!
Furthermore, has anyone here ever cast a magic spell? Reality. Yep.
Games are entertainment and often escapist. Sometimes they are used for training purposes (ala Marine Doom), sometimes to build skills, and sometimes to build community. RPGs, however, with a general focus on epics and story, tend to be where we go when we want to get away from reality.
(This message has been edited by sanehatter (edited 02-25-2001).)
Originally posted by death_himself: **Shut up you ****ing moderator people should be allowed to discuss what they want however many times they ****ing want to. Also can you get back to the ****ing secrecy it was at least going ****ing somewhere. God how I hate y'all (except those with minus kama). Now you should just tell us the answer no ****ing secrecy. **
::an ethereal echo, whispers above the room::
tsk, tsk, Death how vulgar can you get?
I hope the battle system doesn't suck, "a balance", but which way is it tipped?
::echo degrades:: He is gone ??...
------------------ unseen... unwanted... unlawful... undead...
The POG movie you released got me thinking, and my faith in Coldstone was revitalized, rightly so. I am now ambitiously awaiting the new realtime battle engine, as it sounds like a fresh break from the norm. As I thought about this feature, and the movement on this board for the support of parties, it brought to mind the hurdles you may have to overcome to make this a reality. Make no mistake, this is by no means a way to persaude you or bug you for an answer, merely an idea on some problems you may have come across if you have not already dealt with them.
The first problem with parties and the realtime battle engine involves walking on the map. (BTW, will there be a run key, like in Chronotrigger?) As demonstrated in the movie, movement will (gleefully) be controlled by the keyboard. Other games with similar battle systems move with the mouse (which, btw, I despise), so movement of party members is quite simple. However, moving your characters in realtime with the arrow keys is quite a task, as there are no turn-based or random battles, so everyone will have to be present on the screen at all times. I sincerely hope you can find an inventive way to deal with this; perhaps the only way would be to have formation hotkeys and/or advanced pathfinding AI coupled with follow the leader style movement.
The next obstacle is quite obvious, as it comes in the form of controlling the battle itself. Having NPCs and AI fighting would just be boring, so you need some way to control them all in realtime. I think this could easily be remedied with character and attack hotkeys, with enemy finding AI. For example, when you come across a group of enemies, you press "5" to change to formation 5, then "spacebar" for your leader to auto-target the nearest enemy with the default attack that you specify. You then press "shift" to switch to the next PC in line or their corresponding key, for example, Aria would have the key "a". You again press spacebar, or another hotkey for a different skill, and battle continues in that manner. Since I can't stand hack-and-slash (a la Diablo or Baldur's Gate), my game will be spell and technique heavy.
Any other ideas?
I'll end on a question. Will characters (if they are implemented, and if you can accurately make a judgement call as of now) combine powers in team techniques a la Chronotrigger?
Regards, Saphfire
Well, I would believe that whichever system they choose, It will definitely do justice to that style (what Diablo did for real time and Chrono Trigger did for turn based)
I personally have serious doubts as to whether CGE will support an unlimited number of NPCs. Why? Because that wouldn't be an RPG, it would be a RTS. (Ah... that was kinda a common sense grenade there.)
Death, although you have been banned, I do try to take sympathy on everyone. Even people who swear when they breath (or breathe when they swear for that matter). If you were to write a well written, spell checked, and profanity free email to one of the mods here (probably Necromicon, as I believe it was he who banned you) asking for your karma to be raised one point so you may try to earn back your reputation, I think he may be willing to oblige.
Everyone else... don't argue with mods. They are almost always right and can just erase your posts if you were to (somehow) come up with a better arguement than them (although I'm sure they would never do that :))
------------------ -TheDarkDragon Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a night. Teach a man to fish and he'll drink beer and sleep in a boat all day!
Originally posted by TheDarkDragon: **Well, I would believe that whichever system they choose, It will definitely do justice to that style (what Diablo did for real time and Chrono Trigger did for turn based) **
As do I. The folks at Beenox and Ambrosia have made GREAT strides in the past few months, here's to many more.
** I personally have serious doubts as to whether CGE will support an unlimited number of NPCs. Why? Because that wouldn't be an RPG, it would be a RTS. (Ah... that was kinda a common sense grenade there.) **
Multiple party members cannot change a genre. There is so much more to it than that. In fact, it is my opinion that multiple party members are vital to conveying the storyline and plot. I would personally like to have up to twelve main party members, along with up to eight temporary members throughout the game. With up to 4 members in a party.
Also, IF Coldstone supports parties, will it support formations?
I think dragon meant to say that if you have all of those npc's in your party at the same time, not optional ones you left on the roadside.
------------------ "You are the enemy of all that lives, Kerrigan" -Zeratul