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I just started work on (what now seems like) a rather large plugin- in my notebook I have 16 mission-ish things (they're not quite as specific as actual mďsns; it's taken me 8 mďsns to create the first two of these), and I'm going to have to create an entire new section of the Nova universe twice so that I can depict it as destroyed and un-destroyed, not to mention 4 new gövts (granted, one just sits there with a large number of derelict ships and dead planets..) and two new whole sets of ships. Oog. 15 different resource types in the plug already..
Looking at the large amount of work I'm going to have to do to make this plug, I was curious whether anyone has a system for planning a plug that makes it easier for them to put together, organize, and keep track of the large amount of information necessary. Just glancing through topics, it seems that when people talk about the progress of their plug, they go in a certain order, maybe first starting with graphics, then creating the raw s˙sts and spöbs, then making the mďsns and tying it all together. Is this normal? Does it help?
If so, I'm going about this COMPLETELY backwards- I started with my first mďsn and am making other stuff as it's needed.. sigh..
Any comments?
-K
------------------ -- Art History = Cool! ...and yes, I'm odd. --
I'm in the process of making my first real plug-in now so I'm just making my own way. Definately leave graphics for last, deal with the boring tasks of spobs and systs first, then you have a base to work on, and you know you've done something. If you just render a great picture of a ship then you haven't really gotten very fair. Making misns is fine, but after a while when you need spob ID's of planets you haven't even planned yet, things will get muddled. Erm, so what I'm saying is, get the syst and spob down first. I guess its a case of priorities (obvious I know, but easily forgotten).
Good luck, Solace
------------------ Your best is good enough
Quote
Originally posted by Kate: **I just started work on (what now seems like) a rather large plugin- in my notebook I have 16 mission-ish things (they're not quite as specific as actual mďsns; it's taken me 8 mďsns to create the first two of these), and I'm going to have to create an entire new section of the Nova universe twice so that I can depict it as destroyed and un-destroyed, not to mention 4 new gövts (granted, one just sits there with a large number of derelict ships and dead planets..) and two new whole sets of ships. Oog. 15 different resource types in the plug already..
**
Make sure that you have all the storylines all planned out before you start. Actually, it's best if you know what you want to have (in the plug) down on paper so that you can make connections on how resources intermix. Don't forget about your crons and your bits, because those are extremely important too. I think that it's best if you plan as many of the bits a you possibly can down on paper, so that you don't get those mixed up. I'm in the early planning stages of a fairly large plug, and I can see on the order of several hundred missions, hundreds of systems and planets, gobs and gobs of cron controlled ships, bit controlled planets, etc. With all that information, I need to have it planned meticulously on paper (bits and resource ids, etc) before I start on the computer. Graphics generally come last.
Matrix
------------------ "Nothing is fool-proof to a sufficiently talented fool." (url=http://htf.mondominishows.com/valentine/main.asp?seed=7375&serial;=214877)The funniest valentine I've ever gotten.(/url
I've got my storyline (singular-ish, at least it isn't a TC :p..) planned out except for the last few pieces, and a record of the bits I already have and what they do.. Other than that, though, not much concrete planning. While not written down, I know I'm going to need to design a whole new line of ships (about the same number as the Polaris government has), plus make a few new ships that look sort of like very technological amalgamations of all the different governments. I also need to make a whole new section of the universe in the northwest, maybe a little smaller than Polaris space. Each of those s˙sts has to have one copy, a dead system filled with derelict ships and destroyed planets, and a second copy with the same planets and ships going about their little spacey lives normally. I need some new outfits and weapons to flesh out the new section of the universe, and I'm also going to have to experiment a lot (oh, horrors..) with the gravity part of the spöb dialogue.
So really, the only thing I have planned out in detail are all but the last eighth of the missions. Sigh.. :frown:
Out of curiosity, Matrix, you said you're using several hundred missions.. the Bible says the maximum number of missions is 1000, and 914 of them (or so.. that might be the id of my first mission confused and doesn't want to go look it up) are already used.. how are you going to do that?
If you're starting with s˙sts and spöbs, Solace, do you make any necessary graphics for them as you come to them, or wait until the end?
Thanks!
Most people generally make little place-holder graphics, which could be anything really. However, everyone does things in a different order.
Personally, I am working on getting at least a basic graphic done for each major ship, and will add in more detail later down the road. While I'm not doing the graphics, I always put in quite a bit of thought into how the story will play out, and how the universe looks. I personally plan on putting the work in missions after I get the major ships, outfits, and systems in place. (Important stuff first, then add in details.)
What a lot of people I am working with have done is draw out a quick regional map of the universe, and will place systems later on. On the map they would have major locations planned out, so they don't end up putting major missions too close/too far away from each other. They then work on the storylines, and then try to get the graphics, outfits and ships done. (Get the plot set out, then work on the ships as they are needed.)
Of course, what I'm doing right now is trying to push the limits of the Nova engine, as I'd prefer to do something unique as opposed to a generic, fly-around-and-kill-stuff universe. The only problem is balancing my ideas between my personal TC, and some of the various TC's I am working in...
You can find lots of stuff (url="http://"http://www.AmbrosiaSW.com/webboard/Forum9/HTML/001811.html")here(/url) or (url="http://"http://www.AmbrosiaSW.com/webboard/Forum9/HTML/002624.html")here(/url). I also recall Frandall I believe, posting some sort of guidelines, or something to get started with a plugin, but i have been unable to find that particular post...
------------------ Eat blazing electric death! (url="http://"http://www.evula.org/infernostudios/ept/")Unofficial EV and EVO Ports(/url): Both currently in FC1. Please post any bugs (url="http://"http://www.ev-nova.net/forums/viewforum.php?f=26")here(/url).
Originally posted by Kate: Out of curiosity, Matrix, you said you're using several hundred missions.. the Bible says the maximum number of missions is 1000, and 914 of them (or so.. that might be the id of my first mission confused and doesn't want to go look it up) are already used.. how are you going to do that?
I'm completely replacing the Nova universe. All I need is free time to actually do planning.... I'm just too busy with school and stuff. Maybe during the summer I'll get something done...
(b)If you're starting with s˙sts and spöbs, Solace, do you make any necessary graphics for them as you come to them, or wait until the end?
Kate- for info on development/plug-in planning processes, check out:
(url="http://"http://www.AmbrosiaSW.com/cgi-bin/ubb/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&number;=31&SUBMIT;=Go")http://www.AmbrosiaS...er=31&SUBMIT=Go(/url)
This guy is pure genius.
_bomb
------------------ "Life is not to fear... Life is to enjoy." - TEB And don't you listen to these nitwits. Nova's a great game and don't let anyone tell ya otherwise. Better or worse than EVO? Who gives an african monkey's nads? -pistgavin
Originally posted by Bomb: ** This guy is pure genius.;)
_bomb **
Yea we know you are bomb. I use you guide to plan out the steps of the plug I am working on.
------------------ One site to rule them all, One site to find them, One site to bring them all, And in the darkness bind them, (url="http://"http://www.EVula.com")EVula's Lair(/url) Visit my site at (url="http://"http://cdrwerks.northernswamp.com")http://cdrwerks.northernswamp.com(/url) Looks like Mazca was thinking a bit too hard about the Igazra while playing... Forge I need to pay more attention.
Just a couple more things to add:
Write EVERYTHING down. You never know what random note you'll need. Aside from my notes, I keep a text document on my desktop open that contains every resource ID and it's name that I've used. It's catagorized by resource type and I update it every time I make a change to a name or add/delete a resource. I also mark on it resources in use by other plugs that I want to remain compatible with as well as all the mission bits I've used, occasionally including small descriptions with those as well. I find doing this is ridiculously handy as I don't have to look everything up constantly and I know what I've already completed and used.
I really have no order for doing things. I usually start by getting a general outline written up so I know what direction to take the story. Figuring out new ships, weapons, outfits, systems, spobs usually comes next. I like to have everything given a resource placeholder, especially outfits and ships, even if it's empty so that while I'm writting missions I have the IDs ready to go. Other than that, I'm pretty scattered. I pretty much write the story as I make the missions and I make graphics and descriptions sporadically throughout the process, which I find is a nice way of breaking things up. If I'm writing mission text for days it's nice to have to be able do something else for a day or two.
------------------ I used to jog but the ice kept falling out of my glass. (url="http://"http://www.0three0.net/l-1551/")L 1551(/url) - The official site of RONIN and The Way and the ten thousand things
(quote)Originally posted by Bomb: This guy is pure genius.
------------------ Art History = Cool! ...and yes, I'm odd. "The pigeons are coming! The pigeons are coming!" -Kate 50 posts in a week and a half!
Placeholder Graphics = real graphics, usually Nova's (but copied into new shans) or simple renderings reminicent of the late 1970's. (Yeah vector triangles). Just something to know it's there.
Bomb really provided a great resource there. I wish I'd known about it a long time ago. The one useful thing I do is keep a text document, my "design doc" open at all times, like Kame's. Instead of resource names and numbers, though, I use it to document the contribute/require bits and all the mission bits. I just put down the bit, say 1035, and put a note, say "Bryce Tierson alive and befriended." I can not stress how useful this is before and during mission development. My plug already uses about 300 bits, and I only have 20 or so missions- all of them simply mechanical functions. This doc is vital. Another thing I've done is set out certain ranges for certain bits. 0-999 is bits dealing with ships, 1000-1999 deals with systs and spobs, etc, which makes it alot easier to read the bit strings when they are already written. "Ahh, it depends on the system position" without even checking the doc.
Good luck, it sounds like an ambitious first (second?) project.
------------------ ~Charlie
Originally posted by Kate: I read the whole thing, and I seem to be going about the process completely backwards. Minimal stuff down on paper, starting with missions... Suffice it to say that I think I'm going back to the drawing board..
Really don't worry too much about what other people do. Many people tend to start these things the same way but only because I think we've found from our own mistakes that it's easy to be at least somewhat organized before jumping into a large project. I think it's far more important to do whatever works for you rather than trying to conform to someone else's standards. Like I said, except for organizing a few general ideas and resources I'm pretty sporadic. Just last night, while in the middle of writing a mission, I decided that I needed 3 new systems. The systems weren't at all mission related and didn't impact the mission I was working on in any way. So I created the new systems got them placed where I wanted, linked them up and left it at that. At some point when I get bored writing all that mission dialogue I'll go back to those systems and add stellars and astroids and all the dudes. I know many other people get this all worked out in the beginning but doing it this way works fine for me. Or like withs pers, I never know that I'll need them until I write a mission for them. If making everything as you progress works for you then go with that. Just do whatever you're more comfortable with. Even if it takes longer I think it's easier to do something in a way you like than it is to do that same thing someone else's way that isn't natural for you.
Originally posted by Kame: If making everything as you progress works for you then go with that. Just do whatever you're more comfortable with. Even if it takes longer I think it's easier to do something in a way you like than it is to do that same thing someone else's way that isn't natural for you.
I think the problem is that I really would do better by planning things out beforehand- I'm already all muddled with systems and ships. I just hate to plan things, being a terrible procrastinator, so it takes/will take a lot of discipline for me to get more than the basics written down- I know exactly what I want, but as soon as I sit down with my notebook, I start staring into space and not writing anything. Hence it's very difficult for me to plan ahead, even though I know that it would be much easier for me to do so. :frown:
Thank you for the explanation of placeholder graphics, Masamune
Back to work.. -K
(quote)Originally posted by Kate: **I think the problem is that I really would do better by planning things out beforehand- I'm already all muddled with systems and ships. I just hate to plan things, being a terrible procrastinator, so it takes/will take a lot of discipline for me to get more than the basics written down- I know exactly what I want, but as soon as I sit down with my notebook, I start staring into space and not writing anything. Hence it's very difficult for me to plan ahead, even though I know that it would be much easier for me to do so.:p My problem is that I get the basics but leave out so many of the important details that at some point during the plug, after I've already written several missions and progressed the story considerably, I end up having no clue how to connect to my next "basic idea." Even when I decide to sit down and get some definitive details written down I end up only writing more basics. Then I get all excited with an idea and try to implement it right away, completely forgeting what I was originally doing.
------------------ I used to jog but the ice kept falling out of my glass. (url="http://"http://www.0three0.net/l-1551/")L 1551(/url) - The official site of RONIN and The Way and the ten thousand things **
Originally posted by Kame: **Really don't worry too much about what other people do. Many people tend to start these things the same way but only because I think we've found from our own mistakes that it's easy to be at least somewhat organized before jumping into a large project. I think it's far more important to do whatever works for you rather than trying to conform to someone else's standards. Like I said, except for organizing a few general ideas and resources I'm pretty sporadic. Just last night, while in the middle of writing a mission, I decided that I needed 3 new systems. The systems weren't at all mission related and didn't impact the mission I was working on in any way. So I created the new systems got them placed where I wanted, linked them up and left it at that. At some point when I get bored writing all that mission dialogue I'll go back to those systems and add stellars and astroids and all the dudes. I know many other people get this all worked out in the beginning but doing it this way works fine for me. Or like withs pers, I never know that I'll need them until I write a mission for them. If making everything as you progress works for you then go with that. Just do whatever you're more comfortable with. Even if it takes longer I think it's easier to do something in a way you like than it is to do that same thing someone else's way that isn't natural for you.
See, I think you're right that everyone should have your style, but I think you're going about it in the wrong way- you're only going to make more problems for yourself later on. By writing things here and there stuff gets left out, inconsistencies start to appear, etc. Pretty soon you have to go back and clean things up so they make sense. Trust me, I've gone through it many times before... In fact, it's the reason behind %95 of the errors in F-25 2.0.
Careful, concise planning beforehand pays dividends once you really get into the programming aspects of scenario creation..
Originally posted by Bomb: **See, I think you're right that everyone should have your style, but I think you're going about it in the wrong way- you're only going to make more problems for yourself later on. By writing things here and there stuff gets left out, inconsistencies start to appear, etc. Pretty soon you have to go back and clean things up so they make sense. Trust me, I've gone through it many times before... In fact, it's the reason behind %95 of the errors in F-25 2.0.
Careful, concise planning beforehand pays dividends once you really get into the programming aspects of scenario creation..**
Without a doubt. And my notes aren't as scattered as that sounds but things definetly get left out yet I can stay on track enough to prevent inconsistancies. I simply can't put that much time into abstract ideas. Without doing the actual programming I have a hard time visuallizing how things will turn out which makes it difficult to write specific details out and form a real solid path to follow. I get a general idea of where I want to take the story, write down a few missions to drive it along then try and take it from there. Definetly not the prettiest way to go about it but like a said, I just can't sit still long enough before wanting to get my hands dirty to do it any other way.
Here's my $0.02 worth of suggestions:
1. I've taken the Nova Resource Bible and split it into separate text files for each resource section. Then as I discover little gotchas in the course of development or glean facts from the different forums, I edit notes/corrections/updates into the relevant section for future reference. I keep this set of documents in a drop down menu (shareware TaskMenuBar) so that it's always handy.
2. Don't underestimate the power of using a spreadsheet for plug/TC development. Combined with the wOOtWare applications ConText and ResStore this approach makes large global changes virtually painless. It's also much easier to spot inconsistencies between resources when they're all layed out together in a spreadsheet. Another added benefit of the ConText application is that it lists any resource duplications which may exist.
3. As has been stated by others, the value of planning is inestimable, both strategic (what's the goal) and tactical (what resources are used). Know what NCBs are already used by the Nova scenario when developing a plug and many little problems can be avoided. Know what resource ID numbers are already in use so that you don't step on existing missions, outfits, ships, stellars, etc.
------------------ "There are no bugs in my code, ... only undocumented features." - corollary #3 Please use the (url="http://"http://www.AmbrosiaSW.com/cgi-bin/ubb/search.cgi?action=intro&default;=9")SEARCH(/url) feature before posting a new question. For EV:Nova development questions, please read the (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/cgi-bin/vftp/show.pl?product=evn&category;=guides&display;=name&file;=bible_and_tmpls.sit.bin")EV Nova Resource Bible(/url) first. Provided by bit-banger Arturo: a (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/cgi-bin/vftp/show.pl?product=evn&category;=utilities&display;=name&file;=ResourceInterdependence.hqx")Resource Interdependence table(/url) and the (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiasw.com/cgi-bin/vftp/show.pl?product=evn&category;=plugins&display;=name&file;=ShieldBubbles1.0.hqx")Shield Bubbles 1.0 plug(/url)
Originally posted by Kame: My problem is that I get the basics but leave out so many of the important details that at some point during the plug, after I've already written several missions and progressed the story considerably, I end up having no clue how to connect to my next "basic idea." Even when I decide to sit down and get some definitive details written down I end up only writing more basics. Then I get all excited with an idea and try to implement it right away, completely forgeting what I was originally doing.
Exactly. :frown:
Originally posted by Bomb: Careful, concise planning beforehand pays dividends once you really get into the programming aspects of scenario creation..
I understand this.. was told the same thing when I tried to learn C++ programming, and when I used Coldstone. It makes sense. I just have some sort of inner aversion to the planning stage. Do you have a system or order for planning as detailed as the one you laid out for the actual programming?
I tried to plan this afternoon! I procrastinated to the degree of spending ten minutes finding a pencil (granted, there -are- few writing utensils in my room..), wrote down one mission's specs in more detail (one that I'd -already- programmed), and then realized I needed to go do chores. Groan...
Sheesh, does everyone do graphics last? Here's my plan: Govs, outfits(+descs), weapons(+spins), ships(+shans, graphics, descs), dudes, systs, spobs(+graphics, landing pics, descs), missions, chrons, all misc stuff.
------------------ (url="http://"http://mywebpages.comcast.net/genea16/Rift.html")Rift Homepage(/url) (url="http://"http://pub101.ezboard.com/briftwebboards")Rift Webboards(/url) Apparently, common sense isn't so common... ~Nick