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I offer up this handfull of images in defence of my personal favorite 3D modeler.
All these images were rendered in Bryce. I tend to use Infini-D alot in order to produce more complex modles, and then import them. I also use Photoshop and Illustrator extencivly to make the textures.
Post-rendering, I'll normaly render an image in several layers and the mash them together in Photoshop afterwards.
---- from my degree show this year... (url="http://"http://www.ped.org.uk/dogfight.htm")http://www.ped.org.uk/dogfight.htm(/url) (url="http://"http://www.ped.org.uk/aliens.htm")http://www.ped.org.uk/aliens.htm(/url) (url="http://"http://www.ped.org.uk/bigships.htm")http://www.ped.org.uk/bigships.htm(/url) (url="http://"http://www.ped.org.uk/burning.htm")http://www.ped.org.uk/burning.htm(/url)
---- general scenes... (url="http://"http://www.ped.org.uk/spider.htm")http://www.ped.org.uk/spider.htm(/url) (url="http://"http://www.ped.org.uk/tanks.htm")http://www.ped.org.uk/tanks.htm(/url) (url="http://"http://www.ped.org.uk/fleet.htm")http://www.ped.org.uk/fleet.htm(/url) (url="http://"http://www.ped.org.uk/dra.htm")http://www.ped.org.uk/dra.htm(/url)
The index page for the abouve is... (url="http://"http://www.ped.org.uk/index2.htm")http://www.ped.org.uk/index2.htm(/url)
...but for some reason, the links don't work on my browser. My brother coded them for me as I have no html skills. He asures me that they work on his.
------------------ PED new media, new ideas. "Palm Pilot, that sounds like a w@nking machine!" Brian Blessed
My brother's good name is exsonerated... the linking problem is to do with Netscrape, not his code.
So use the index link above, as there are a hole bunch of other images there for your peroosal.
Quote
Originally posted by Hudson: **My brother's good name is exsonerated... the linking problem is to do with Netscrape, not his code. **
no, it's a problem with his code. Tell him to get off the javascript high and use <a href="" target="_blank"> instead of his javascript, and the problem there is with IE not conforming to the JavaScript standards (set by Netscape)
------------------ --sitharus (url="http://"http://www.evp.f2s.com/boards/")The Alternative EV/O Boards(/url) (url="http://"mailto:sitharus@ureach.com")mailto:sitharus@ureach.com(/url)sitharus@ureach.com
K... I will pass that on.
Oh, and a suggestion, make some basic tutorials on how to do this. Many people just look at images like that and think 'yeh, but I'll never be that good', many people would benefit...
Fair play.
Now taking questions as to how you go about doing this stuff.
I havn't got time to sit down and go through everything (I only have internet access at work), but I'd be happy to help anyone who wants to know.
Starters for 10 anyone?
Great PICTs!!
------------------ To Escape Velocity: Nova and Beyond! -------------- Millennium. Its coming, prepare for it. Coming to the (url="http://"http://www.ambrosiaSW.com/games/ev/chronicles.html")EV Chronicles(/url).
Basic Bryce hits and tips... (I'm dyslexic and my copy of Word is down so I can't spell-check, so please forgive any travisties against the english dictioanary)
First of all, why use Bryce at all? For one, it is without doubt, the easiest to use 3D modeler available. Its graphic interface is simple to understand (ignoring consolse such as the textures editor) and is incredably intuitive. The POV manipulation tools are some of the easiest to use I have ever seen. And the best part, contrery to the oppinion held by allot of other, is the rendering engine. Once you get your head arround the way bryce handles textures it is far more versitike tool than any other I have used. The engine its self is fractal based, and actualy calculates the textures as it renders them, unlike other engines that simply wrap images or flat colours around the objects.
Another reason for using bryce is in fact, why bryces existese in the first place. Bryce was designed to be a landscape modelling tool, and as such, emulates atmosphiers extrodinarily well. There is no requirment for fussing with light bulbs and spotlights etc, the default light saucing behaves just as our own sun does in our atmosphier. Nice.
So to the tips...
Instead render diferent eliments individualy. This way you have more controle over the process and what's more, it'll render faster.
Make use of the 'mask render' function in the rendering menu (the little arrow pointing down next to the render buttons on the left-hand pannel). It makes creating composit images in Photoshop (or similar) alot easier. (This proccess makes hint 2 alot easier)
Repeat this process for each focal plane, reducing the degree of bluring the closer you get to the central focus of the scene. This focal centre, ofcourse will have no bluring at all. (The 'tanks' image is made up of about 6 or 7 focal layers, my memory is a little fuzzy as I generated this image over two years ago now.)
Like wise use the same process for ojects that are between the camera and the focal centre (see 'fleet' image, the large vessel, off-centre-left, is the focal centre. There are rocks in the forground that blur the closser they get to the camera. This image by the way was made up of around 60 layers, each rendered individualy)
In images where there is a vissible ground level, such as in 'tanks', you'll nead to feather the gredation of bluring from one level to the next using the layer masks, as even very gradual bluring can be quite obviouse. But that might just be me 'cos I know it's there.
The console where-in you edit/creat textures has far too many fetures to go into, and any advice I gave generaly, wouldn't do it justice. If anyone has spassific questions about this area, don't be affraid to ask. Referencing examples from those images I have posted would be helpfull.
Don't be a purist. If you have access to other, more versitile modeling softwear, such as Infini-D (my personal choice, mainly because I don't have anything else) don't be affraid to use it. Bryce can import a number of modle formats including dxf and 3dmf files. I prefer to use 3dmf's as they appier smoother once imported.
Avoid where possible using boolian shapes, if you can produce the same shape in Infini-D or the like, do so. Boolians are grate, and they are very usfull, there are shapes that would be almost impossible to produce without them, but when used exstencivly, they just get confusing.
Make use of the colour tagging system (located on the contextual menu that floats next to the curently selected item. This is particulaly usful when working with very complex models such as vessels (see prity-much everything I've posted).
Bug Warning. When rendering, Bryce sometimes adds an 'Alpha' channel into the image file when you save it. This alway happens when saving as a pict. I'm not sure about the other formats as I don't touch them.
The result is that when you drop these images into applications that support Alpha channeling (ResEdit for one), the image appieres semi-transparent.
Delet the Alpha channel in the 'channels palet' in Photoshop and all will be well.
Any questions, just ask, I'm away for the weekend, and much of next week, so please be pasiant if you don't get a responce straight away.
Starters for 10...you mean the first 10 questions?
1. How do you make your textures? I actually, even after a long time of wondering and asking, don't know what specifically to ask. What's your thought process? What's your technical (mouse/tablet pen (lucky) to screen) process? Any tips for realism? (references: Dogfight, Large Ships, Tanks...pretty much any of them)
2. How do you get your textures to line up just so, especially on whole-model wrap-around textures? Even moreso in Bryce...though I use Infini-D 4.5 for all non-typical-Brycean scenes. (same ones as #1)
3. How do you do your modelling? Many of your ships seem polygonal...did you finally get Infini-D's mesh editor to make something decent? If so, how? If not, is it just a complex, mesh-like spline? (references: aliens...wait, just about everything)
4. How'd you get some of those special effects (esp. engine glows and smoke trails in Dogfight and warp gate in Alien)?
5. Any tips on general rendering realism?
6. If it's a detail, tell me how you thought of it and executed it. (reference: that complex ship in fleet...but not limited to that)
7. How do you import from Infini-D without getting a whole bunch of facets (even smoothed, they don't look very good in Bryce) (reference: that bottle)
Well, that's only 7, but I'm sure I'll come up with some more later. If you couldn't tell, my two areas that need work are textures and details. :frown: Any help you, or anyone, can give in those areas would be greatly appreciated.
------------------
(This message has been edited by Weepul 884 (edited 12-15-2000).)
Oh, and if you want to see some of my work, poke around in (url="http://"http://www.jps.net/btaenzer/")http://www.jps.net/btaenzer/(/url). Watch out for the endings to orbital.mov.
Originally posted by Hudson: **I offer up this handfull of images in defence of my personal favorite 3D modeler.
**
Cool images -- I suggest posting them to the (url="http://"http://www.AmbrosiaSW.com/cgi-bin/ubb/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&number;=56&SUBMIT;=Go")EV Image Gallery(/url).
------------------ Andrew Welch / el Presidente / Ambrosia Software, Inc. (url="http://"http://www.AmbrosiaSW.com/~andrew/")http://www.AmbrosiaSW.com/~andrew/(/url) | "If all men knew what others say of them, there would not be four friends in the world."
Blaise Pascal (1623-62) French philosopher, mathematician, invented adding machine
---|---
Starters for 10... I'm British, sorry. It's a line from a UK quiz-show called 'University Chalenge'. (The quiz master first asks a starter question which awards a correct answer with 10 points. Hense 'starters for 10'...
...anyway...
1. How do you make your textures? Technique, mouse only. If you're working with organic textures, you're best off stiking with the default textures and monipulating them.
As far as more mecanical stuff goes, my prosses goes something like this... The sort of texture I produce is normaly effected by two factors. The first is what the final image will be used for (this effects the detail level, colours, etc. of the texture) And the second is what the actual shape of the modle is its self (eg, it's pointless putting an organic texture on a blocky, squared off vessel, because it just won't look right. Some things just fit, it's kind of hard to verbalise. I think it's just an intuitive thing.)
In the case of a texture such as the ones in 'composite ship', I start by producing an outline for the more hard edged bits in Illustrator, pannels, logos, vents etc. The shapes of these elements are normaly informed or lifted from the shapes of the model.
This done, I'll import the texture into Photoshop and add graines, dirt, bullet holes, that sort of thing. A make a habit of producing square documents, all the frames that you fllow imported textures into in Bryce are always square. I don't know weather it makes any difference, but through force of habbit, it's the way I work. It also helps the textures to wrap at the edges.
That's another iportant thing, where possible, try to make a line that flowes off the edge of a texture, flow back on, on the opposit side, it makes tiling easier.
REALISOM, don't be too presiouse with your textures, make them dirty, leave in the poverbial thumb print, it gives textures an earthy quality. The people who produce the graphics for StarTrek do the same thing, through trial and error, they have found that imperfect models look more realistic than highly polished ones.
2. How do you get your textures to line up just so? Trial and error mainly, though the more you fiddle on one project, you lern how to do things quiker, and after a while you gain an instinktive feel for wrapping textures. Sorry I can't be more helpfull.
One thing though, If your trying to match up pict textures in bryce, try using the different wrapping methods on the component texture windows in the textures editor console (the four smaller windows down the right of the screen marked A B C & D) There in the pull down menu. Also for fine tuning, open the editor. It's the green button on the top left corner on each of the A to D windows. They give you the option of scaling, rotaiting and shifting the textures around the serface of the object.
3. How do you do your modelling? Infini-D, mostly using the Spline editor, some fine tuning in the mesh editor. My best models are a combination of both. The other thing to do is up the mesh resolution, I do it automaticaly, so I'm not entirly sure where it is, but I think it's in the preferences menu.
If you look at ships like the ones on 'composite ship', the central frames are made up of no more than about 60 polygones. I produced these models spasificaly to look like computer game models, so I relied heavily on implied detail using the textures, it's possible to make a modle look far more detailed than it actualy is, just through clever use of textures. The way I made these mods was to produce a simple 2D spline profile view (like a cilinder, but with nobs on) in infini-d, converted that into a VERY simple mesh and then pulled the resulting points around until I had the desired effect.
4. How'd you get some of those special effects? The warp gate was produced by pasting one of the default textures (I think it was a cloud type, semi-transparent one) onto a cone in Bryce in such a way that the distortions got more intence, the closer you got to the pointy end. The cone was then rotated to the desired angle so that the camera was placed inside the cone, pointing into it, and then rendered by its self (the ships and the space scape were rendered separatly). Then with heavy use of the effects asigned to layers in photoshop, and layer masking if memory serves me correctly, I produced the image you see there. (just for reference both this image a the 'dogfight' image are part of on panorama that was eight feet wide. It was part of my degree presentation. It is BLŘŘDY big!)
The engin flares are just simple layer effects in Photoshop (Layer effect: Multiply, I think) and then several of the same layer staked up on each other to produce the saturated colours you see there.
The important thing to remember is that it's not what you use, but how you use it.
5. Any tips on general rendering realism? See the texures bit above and the rendering tips in the post one or two up the string.
6. If it's a detail, tell me how you thought of it and executed it. Heavy experimentation and many many hours infront of a Mac, is all I have to go on (it's what I do for a living, so I had no choice but to get good realy, and I'm only 21 too!) also see the hint and tip posted earlier.
7. How do you import from Infini-D without getting a whole bunch of facets? by upping the mesh resolution (see above), be carfull though, this is VERY memory intencive.
I hope this is of some help, if not, come back with more questions after trying the above.
Any more for any more?
(This message has been edited by Hudson (edited 12-15-2000).)
About how much does Infini-D and Bryce cost?
------------------ Hens love roosters Geese love ganders Everyone loves Ned Flanders!
Bryce: Ł120 ish Infini-D: I don't think it's available, it was baught by **** Creations a while before they sold off all their titals. I for one havn't heared anything of it for a long time. It was relitivly expencive when it was availabe though, something like Ł300/Ł400.
This is gonna be long...
1. How do you make your textures? In the case of a texture such as the ones in 'composite ship', I start by producing an outline for the more hard edged bits in Illustrator, pannels, logos, vents etc. The shapes of these elements are normaly informed or lifted from the shapes of the model.
Ok, I know that kind of thing, rather well. My problem is in #2.
Square is fine with me. What I don't really get are two things: how to think up of stuff like bullet holes, dirt, oil smears, scars, charring, etc. You know (I hope ;)), the mental process. The other is actually how (in Photoshop?) to create such things. I can work with Photoshop, but these and Onyx's, for example, I don't really know how they were made.
I already covered that above...I'm just trying to get a head start, instead of pure trial and error. I'm not sure where to begin.
Well, this is a big problem for me. Let's say I want to make a texture with parts going in specific places. This is easy with a straight mapping mode, but you can't use that with anything but mostly flat objects (no spheres, cylinders, etc.), but I don't know how to get stuff to line up just so on irregular objects (re-making textures over and over in trial and error is almost out of the question).
3. How do you do your modelling? If you look at ships like the ones on 'composite ship', the central frames are made up of no more than about 60 polygones. I produced these models spasificaly to look like computer game models, so I relied heavily on implied detail using the textures, it's possible to make a modle look far more detailed than it actualy is, just through clever use of textures. The way I made these mods was to produce a simple 2D spline profile view (like a cilinder, but with nobs on) in infini-d, converted that into a VERY simple mesh and then pulled the resulting points around until I had the desired effect.
I once tried converting a model to mesh in Infini-D for use in a game...300 polys or less. It came out as about 800. The same shape could be made with less than 100. I told it to use low poly count, and resolution in prefs was to low. How can you control the poly count? Can you create/remove vertices? I use Infini-D 4.5, and as far as I know it's mesh editor stinks royally.
4. How'd you get some of those special effects? The engin flares are just simple layer effects in Photoshop (Layer effect: Multiply, I think) and then several of the same layer staked up on each other to produce the saturated colours you see there.
I'd think Screen, but ok, I see how you did it...basically...how you painted the shape is a potential mystery.
Huh?
I'm 16. I spend most of my non-school hours in front my my computer also. I haven't picked up on them yet...that's what I'm trying to do now.
Think my G4/450/256MB RAM could handle it?
Will do. I mean, am doing.
Originally posted by Hudson: **Bryce: Ł120 ish Infini-D: I don't think it's available, it was baught by **** Creations a while before they sold off all their titals. I for one havn't heared anything of it for a long time. It was relitivly expencive when it was availabe though, something like Ł300/Ł400. **
Yeh, it was quite good. The only way you'll get it now is either by getting it second hand, or via more dubious methods Neither should matter, it's discontinued. Look for Carrara if you want to get the new version, it's Infini-D and Raydream merged into one.
Also, just testing something, I think the board filters out m-e-t-a, so let's try: **** Weird huh? Anyway, MetaCreations sold the stuff, but I dont know who they sold carrara to...
As far as I know (source: carrara mailing list) Carrara has yet to find a new home. It's currently buggy as HECK. Only the blessed are able to do anything with it...I'm not one of them. :frown:
Still awaiting more answers...oh, one more question: do you render on normal or fine art antialiasing?
Since we're flaunting self promotion here, I'd thought I'd show my latest works for my art class. Granted, I forgot to turn up transparency depth and reflectivity recursion, I think you'd get the idea. I got 100% on this assignment which was to design a pyramid using originality as a basis for marking. It even has a odd Christmas feel to it...
Enjoy! (url="http://"http://homepage.mac.com/meebo/Spheroid.jpg")http://homepage.mac....bo/Spheroid.jpg(/url)
------------------ "The difference between a boss and a leader: a boss says, 'Go!' - a leader says, 'Let's go!'" -E. M. Kelly Star Trek Escape Velocity (url="http://"http://homepage.mac.com/startrekev/")http://homepage.mac.com/startrekev/(/url)
Originally posted by andrew: **Cool images -- I suggest posting them to the EV Image Gallery.
Yes! Those PICTs are definitely worthy of such a place!
Weepul, wrrrright.......
Um, where to start? How to think up 'charing' etc. I find that coming up with a 'history' for the vessel you're making can sometimes help. Think up a story for that vessel, a famouse battle it was in, why it was made, what it's been doing for the last few years, perhaps it's been sitting in a second-hand ship lot somewhere, building up greese and dirt. Once you've done that, set about telling that story through the marks the vessel beares.
Stuff like dirt, steriotypicaly, seams to buld up down stream from where hull plates join for example, and around propulation vents, anywhere where there's an emition of some discription.
Bullet wholes will veary in size and shape depending on where the impact was on the skin of the vessel. So you just nead to use your better judgement on the positioning of these. How to make them... I tend to layer up verieing colours to give a feeling of depth- it feels as though the skin of the ship has been pushed inwards and then punctured in the middle. eg. a pail layer of brown, then then a darker layer, then another, then lastly, a sloid black hole in the middle. NB don't line them up perfectly, it'll look faulse. Set the individual layers off from one side of each other so it looks like the whole is going in at an angle.
I'm affraid you just have to use your imagination. However, don't be affraid to steel small elliments from other peoples textures, just lift ideas and applie them to yours. One of the reasons I can produce textures like these is because I watch so much Si-Fi. I've got a massive back-log of reference matierial in my head that I can draw on to generate these things (I have a photographic memory which helps). Just walk around with your minds-eye open. You don't just have to draw ideas from Si-Fi, the truly creative mind will draw insperation from any sourse, maybe a car fender, or a toaster. Just because it doesn't go into space, doesn't mean you cant use it as a starting point.
Your 2nd point about textures and getting them to line up... Something I do, and this is asuming you know what you're doing with texture mapping, first I wrap one of my old textures (must be a texture that you still have the original file for) around the object in question and then render a flat, authographic plan/profile/front-on view (depending on where you want the texture to be centred) of the ship. Then import that image to Photoshop and place it over the original, flat texture (you may have to distort the image of the ship, but that's not important) so that the textures match up as best you can manage. What this alowes you to do is place texture elements prcisly onto the body of the object. Once you've finished, all you have to do is re-import the edited texture back into bryce and do a straight swap with the old texture that you pasted on right at the start.
I hope that one is cleare enough, it took me a few months to develop that technique, It's how I produced all the textuers you see in, for example, 'composite ship', 'bigships' and Aliens'.
"I told it to use low poly count, and resolution in prefs was to low. How can you control the poly count? Can you create/remove vertices? I use Infini-D 4.5, and as far as I know it's mesh editor stinks royally."
I'm affraid that I have the same complaint about Infini-D, there just isn't enough controle over the wireframes for my likeing. I personaly would have said that it's mesh editor stinks impierialy (it's kind'a like royaly, only over more continents). I'm still looking for a mesh editor that sutes my neads, but havn't found one that I can afford.
"The important thing to remember is that it's not what you use, but how you use it" What I ment is that, it's not about doing everything in modelers, I know some people shun post-rendering things because they think it's a wusses way out of a problem. I know some people will use textures in Bryce and the like, just because it's a 'hay-look-what-Ican-do-with-MY-models' kind of thing. The truth is, 3D modelers are not the be-all and end-all of computer rendering. My philosofy is that if it looks good, it doesn't matter how you achiev the effect.
"Think my G4/450/256MB RAM could handle it?" now you're just showing off, my home machien is only a G3/233. I refer you to my statement above, "it's not what you use, but how you use it!"
Hope to hear from you soon...
Hudson
This is gonna be even longer...
You know, that's a good idea...
Down stream as in back along the ship, or towards the "bottom" of the ship? Meaning, towards the tail or towards the ground as if it had landed?
Ok, thanks for that tip. Anything for making scorch marks, though? Fade settings, etc? That's something I've had trouble getting good results for.
Well, that's kind of awkward, I'd think. It might be easier with that tester-map image that comes with Infini-D, though...
Great, that's how I feel too! It's all in the final result...except you can't really use Photoshop on animations.
Well, I suppose I was, a bit...though I really didn't know quite what you meant. You said memory-intensive, and some professsional graphics people have over a gig of RAM...
Thanks for all the help...I'd have moved this to email but I think others could benefit from this. Of course, I'll ask any other questions I come up with...ah yes: do you render with normal or fine antialiasing?
Thanks, Weep