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I got tired of arguing the pros and cons of this over on the EV3 board where it doesn't belong, so I am trying to move the argument portion of the topic here. To see what has already been said about this, go to (url="http://"http://www.AmbrosiaSW.com/webboard/Forum26/HTML/000294.html")http://www.AmbrosiaS...TML/000294.html(/url)
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Like I said...
It's a matter of personal prefrence...but when you actually say it doesn't work...that's just not understandable. If it flys, and you can control it...then I'd say it works. Being nit picky about where the weapons come from...only means you either fight using a magnifying glass to the monitor...or you are being TOO critical about your weapons location. If it works good...looks good...no big deal...About EV3 supporting both Angled and topview graphics...most likely... (I officially take myself out of this little argument. No longer intrerests me since people seem to calim that angled graphics don't work and won't hear anything other than that. Just note: Magama is VERY successful...even the crappy StarWars plugs are VERY successful. STEVO is successful...then why do you people insist on living in the dark ages?)
PEACE YO!
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Try it sometime. Point your (angled view) ship at what appears to be 45 degrees, thrust, and see which direction you go. Its not the weapons I complain about so much as the control issue. As I have said, if you only use turrets and homing weapons (i.e. you are piloting a warship rather than a fighter) it doesn't matter so much. And if you don't want to get complaints, do the trig calculations to make the apparent direction match up with the actual direction.
Just a sugestion but have you tried rendering not from the first frame, but from the frame you want to be straight ahead??
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Originally posted by Wyvern: Try it sometime. Point your (angled view) ship at what appears to be 45 degrees, thrust, and see which direction you go.
Name one (1) situation in which this actually matters. If you're looking for it, you'll notice it. Otherwise, nobody cares. -david-
------------------ (url="http://"http://www.meowx.com")Meowx Design Studios(/url) Graphics. Games. And more...
When you are moving towards an enemy, and they just fired a rocket at you, and you want to dodge by as small an amount as possible. So you point the ship at an angle slightly off from directly towards them and thrust.
No, I do not go out looking for this sort of thing. It just shows up and annoys me, and (as I have said) gotten me killed on a few occasions (it never got to be more than a few because I have simply stopped playing plugs that use angled graphics.)
Besides which, why don't you just do the calculations to make it RIGHT???? Nobody has, and if somebody did, I would be perfectly happy to play such a plug. But until somebody does, I will complain bitterly about angled graphics. And if you're going to all the trouble of making graphics that are so nifty you just have to use an angled view to show them off, you might as well put in the extra time to make it right, instead of aNnOyInG. This problem is fixable, so why don't you fix it instead of claiming its not a problem?
Originally posted by Kwanzar: **Like I said...
If it flys, and you can control it...then I'd say it works.
Just note: Magama is VERY successful...even the crappy StarWars plugs are VERY successful. STEVO is successful...then why do you people insist on living in the dark ages?
PEACE YO! **
You can make a ship where all the images are the same. It will fly, and you can, with a great deal of patience, control it, but I'd say that the graphics don't work because you can't see which way its going.
Just note: Windows is VERY successful... why do we mac users insist on living in the dark ages?
Originally posted by Wyvern: **You can make a ship where all the images are the same. It will fly, and you can, with a great deal of patience, control it, but I'd say that the graphics don't work because you can't see which way its going.
Just note: Windows is VERY successful... why do we mac users insist on living in the dark ages? **
Which ship? Having angled ships doesn't do what you're trying to say it does. Take ANY ship from Magma and try that. Angled ships work EXACTLY like top view ships...EXACTLY. ONLY the LOOK is different. Same goes for the top view ships...If you have a ship with all images the same...then duh...is that the angle's fault? No. So far, you've said angled ships don't work...they look like they can only go in one direction...they're not YOUR style of ships...and you suck with them. Well...I guess you're alone there. If you can't control a ship based on it being at a slight angle...then tough luck playing EV3.
If you can't find the front on that...then you're obviously alone pal.
BTW: Your comparison of Macs and Windows is irrelevant to what I was saying. I said angled ships have the advantage...and Ambrosia see's it (used in EV3) and many of the best plugs out there use it; STEVO...all Meowx plugs...Frozen Heart (sorta)...Pale. So why must you bitch and whine about it. Unless you can do better...it's best to shut your mouth.
(This message has been edited by Kwanzar (edited 10-07-2000).)
Angled view can work. However, unless the engine is designed to use it (EV3 presumably will be, while EV/O isn't), IT DOESN'T, unless you do some rather annoying math to make it work right.
And you are right. With an angled view, you do see the front of the ship. It just points in the wrong direction. Even you are willing to admit that. So why don't you fix it? That is worse than no direction at all, since it provides you with misinformation.
And my point with the windows comparison is that you cannot say "lots of people use it, therefore it must be right."
Actually, I just tried it, and the math to make it right is rather simple.
Phi = atan(tan(X)/sin(Theta))
Phi is the angle to rotate the ship about its y-axis X is the desired apparent angle Theta is the angle of the view, with 90 degrees being straight down from above.
If X = n*90 degrees, where n is any integer, this formula is undefined, but these correspond to left, right, up, and down, for which Phi = X, regardless of Theta.
Of course, if the engine directly supports angled views, as EV3 presumably will, then this correction formula is not needed. But for EV/O, it definitely is.
Originally posted by Wyvern: **Angled view can work. However, unless the engine is designed to use it (EV3 presumably will be, while EV/O isn't), IT DOESN'T, unless you do some rather annoying math to make it work right.
And you are right. With an angled view, you do see the front of the ship. It just points in the wrong direction. Even you are willing to admit that. So why don't you fix it? That is worse than no direction at all, since it provides you with misinformation. **
Umm...No...you're still wrong. There is no TRUE direction in space...since you seem to want to be VERY critical of things. There are many wrong things about it...and that can't be helped. It's NOT the wrong direction...I don't see what you mean by the WRONG direction. If ships pass over each other...does that mean they're all WRONG. No. This is a 2D game...unless you're sitting inside a cockpit...there isn't any direction. Foward is where the front of the ship is facing...and that's where the weapons will come from. If you don't get that this is a 2D game...and there is no 3D direction...like you seem to think...then tough...
Writing math problems and stuff won't help...since I ignore critical explainations of things.
By wrong direction, I mean that the apparent direction of the ship is not the direction the ship will go when you thrust, or the direction the ship will shoot when you fire.
And you're the one resorting to bogus irrelevancies. What do you mean "no true direction in space"? And as to the third dimension, that is referring to rendering, not the game. Or do you do make all of your ship models in 2D?
As I said, take one of your vaunted angled view ships, turn to what appears to be 45 degrees, and thrust. You won't end up moving at a 45 degree angle on screen. This demonstrates the problem. Try it. Take a look at the topic back on the EV3 board; somebody posted a nice demonstration there. And if you still refuse to admit that there is any legitimate reason for complaint, explain why not.
Originally posted by Wyvern: **By wrong direction, I mean that the apparent direction of the ship is not the direction the ship will go when you thrust, or the direction the ship will shoot when you fire.
**
Talk about taking things a little to literal here. Point your ship that is in 45 degree angles straight up. Press the "Forward" button. Does it go up? If yes, what is your problem? Does it make you disorientated? If yes, just say so. Don't say that it makes the game worse. Just say, WOW, that amazingly cool ship makes me feel dizzy because I stare straight at it 100% of the time and the stars don't move towards me at a 45 degree angle when I go forward when on screen the ship is pointing up at that same angle. Please, oh please don't go quoting math figures and say that it sucks because the sprites doesn't conform to the physics that the game doesn't even support. As sprite makers we try to give you that illusion of those cool things. Some people like to stare at the pictures that turn into 3D others don't. This is a 2d game. If you want the stars to go towards you at a 45 degree angle when you fly forward, play a 3d game that supports that kind of physics. Speaking on behalf of us sprite makers:
STOP YOUR BlTCH'IN!!!!
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I think I finally see what Wyvern is saying... I think it's just being stated a touch unclearly.
That is, turning 45 degrees doesn't LOOK like 45 degrees, so that the only way to tell what your heading is is to thrust.
Yeah, I can imagine why that would be annoying.
Granted, I think that could be solved by correct rendering. The problem is that a circle marked in 10 degree implements, rotated into a 3rd dimension, no longer looks like an even distribution of 10 degrees.
This is a valid complaint, guys.
However, a clever designer should be able to calculate apparant 10 degree increments and use them to render a ship.
Personally, I like angled views, and math doesn't scare me, so I'll give it a whirl when I do my plugin.
------------------ When I am working on a problem I never think about beauty. I only think about how to solve the problem. But when I have finished, if the solution is not beautiful, I know it is wrong. - Buckminster Fuller (1895-1983)
That is exactly what I have been trying to say. And I did the math; it is a few posts up on this page.
I've looked at Magma and I've seen that type of perspective rendering... Or lack of that is...
No offence to Magma and its graphics, but it used what's called an "Orthographic" view. It gives you no sense of depth. STEVO uses "Wide Angle Perspective" view which is very similar to the view used by the human eye to judge depths. I've seen your math formula, and I have to admit, I'm no math wiz, but yet I'm a 3D artist. Go figure. I'm sure if I look at it long enough I'll understand what your taking about. But here is some pictures so you can understand the difference between Orthographic view and "wide angle perspective view"
Ortho view:
Very little sense of depth and which side is closest to you and far away. Which side is closest to you? Come'on, take a guess....
Wide Angle Perspective (STEVO uses this one):
Now which side is closest to you? Not hard to tell at all and more natural looking. If you don't like that, it's all a matter of opinion.
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(This message has been edited by Metzen (edited 10-08-2000).)
Personally, I find that even worse. Not only does it not fix the original problem, it introduces something else I consider a problem (though I won't argue too much about it, since in this case it really is only a matter of opinion). I do not like ships that appear to change proportion as they spin. If there is a change in proportion, then other ships should be scaled appropriate to there position on screen, which is not possible in EV/O.
Note also that my formula was written assuming an orthographic view, and will not fix the original problem for your perspective view.
Originally posted by Wyvern: **Personally, I find that even worse. Not only does it not fix the original problem, it introduces something else I consider a problem (though I won't argue too much about it, since in this case it really is only a matter of opinion). I do not like ships that appear to change proportion as they spin. If there is a change in proportion, then other ships should be scaled appropriate to there position on screen, which is not possible in EV/O.
Ahhh, the old STEVO ships were rendered in Orthographic view and they just look, well, flat. I understand what your saying though.
Originally posted by Wyvern: **Actually, I just tried it, and the math to make it right is rather simple.
If X = n*90 degrees, where n is any integer, this formula is undefined, but these correspond to left, right, up, and down, for which Phi = X, regardless of Theta. **
Oops... This formula only works for -90<X<90, where X=0 when the ship is pointing right. So it will take a bit of tinkering to actually put this into practice, but it's not that hard. (I just did it, which is why I discovered this small oversight.)