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I have been scraping my way along with mechanisto for a while now and I am ready to buy a real 3-D program which one is the best in everyones opinion. please answer with which one and why.
------------------ Uhh....Is this one of those trick Questions?
AOL/IM: Will346
E-mail me to buy a copy of Infini-d 4
*with a very freindly discount of 100%
------------------ Marge: Pointing to Circuit board in Robots opened head See Homer, that's why your robot didn't work!
(url="http://"http://www.AmbrosiaSW.com/cgi-bin/ubb/newsdisplay.cgi?action=topics&number;=20&forum;=*EV/EVO+chronicles&DaysPrune;=25&article;=000024&startpoint;=")The Tides of War(/url)
Quote
Originally posted by the Necromicon: **E-mail me to buy a copy of Infini-d 4
**
As long as you're transferring the license... btw, did you know that under some circumstances with the DMCA, you can't legally transfer the license of software to someone else?
------------------ My signature is short and unobtrusive. I don't have a long sig to overcompansate for "ego" problems.
Originally posted by foo12: **As long as you're transferring the license... btw, did you know that under some circumstances with the DMCA, you can't legally transfer the license of software to someone else?
Dude...not everyone lives in the perfect white world and can afford that kind of tsuff...so shut the uck up with your legal crap...
Go ahead...track me...cause I can do the same and 10X more...
PEACE YO!
------------------ ~Kwanza~
"Quoted the Kwanza Man...nevermore"
AIM: Kwanzar26
Kwanzasoft Graphics (url="http://"http://www.crosswinds.net/~kwanza")www.crosswinds.net/~kwanza(/url)
Hey, take it easy Kwanzar. I'm personally against pirating...I know that it happens, though, and I know many people can't afford expensive graphics programs. I also know the morality breaks down quite a bit when a product is no longer purchaseable. I'm not gonna accuse you if you send it to him, but neither was foo12. He's just pointing out it is pirating and he doesn't approve. Neither do I, but I'm not gonna do anything about it. He also stated a fact he finds interesting and thought you might too. He wasn't accusing you or anyone else. If you feel anyone who even mentions something you don't want to hear deserves a chewing-out and threatening by you, seek help. If not, chill.
The world is not out to get you...so show a little tolerance and respect, 'k?
------------------
Go ahead and ban me if you feel that way. Banning someone for being critical of software piracy isn't going to look too good, is it? After all, I'm only reminding people of the law and that they are in violation. Get off the power trip. And also remember that, due to your moderator status, you have a closer affiliation with Ambrosia than regular users. Anything you say or do reflects upon Ambrosia and it would be very contradictory for someone affiliated with Ambrosia, a software company, to condone software piracy. It'd be as irrational as a moderator posting registration codes for EVO, and holding that pirating expensive graphics software and not Ambrosia games is a very slippery slope indeed.
Specifically this instance: If Necromicon sells Matrix a copy of Infini-d 4.0, Necromicon must also transfer the license. If he has no license, he's trafficking in stolen goods which is, in most states, a fairly serious crime. (Not to mention the fact that it becomes a federal case as soon as said goods cross state lines or the US Postal service becomes involved.)
And, I pointed out that under certain portions of the DMCA that even an otherwise legal sale is rendered ILLGEAL because the DMCA is a lobbiest law, not a consensus law. It exists to strip the rights of the citizens to further the IP control of the corporations. This is completely unreasonable and totally untolerable as it represents the selling-out of a constiuency by our elected leaders for personal gain. However believing that one can take whatever they want for free is also wrong, something that both Mill and Kant agreed upon. Mill would say different if we were talking about a subsitence item, something that one needed or you would literally die, but Kant wouldn't. Regardless, w'ere not talking about anything like that, are we? We are talking about software, something which is--by the nature of its use pertaining to EV/EVO plugins--a complete and utter luxury.
Oh yes, we're just making copies here, so it's okay, right? No. It's not. It's the same as taking a book, making a copy, and giving away that copy. The actual material cost of the book is not that large---it's the value of the words in the book and, moreso, the tremendous overhead involved with preproduction. What you're doing is taking the potential market of the book and subtracting one by immoral means. That copy is one less copy that could potentially be sold. That's wrong.
Specifically on 3D software, there are some truly wonderful low-cost or free alternatives. You, yourself Kwanzar, use Mechanisto. But there's also Strata3D which, though it can be an evil buggy program, is free and rather powerful if one takes the time to learn the program. I know that Strata only has the manuals online, with no PDF included in the free release, but it's something that you have to tolerate. (Actually if someone will donate the bandwidth, I do have PDF'd copies of the manuals from SSP 2.5.3. Strata3D is basically a much needed bug fix so the old manuals are perfectly pertinent. Just post a followup to this message and I'll ftp them to thefyi from which you can ftp them direct to your site.) If your machine isn't capable of running Strata3D, by all means search Hotline, Carracho, etc. and find a copy of StrataVision3D 5.0 which runs just peachy on even a machine such as a Quadra900 (runs okay on a Qudra 840AV, at least). Strata put the full version of a MacAddict CD awhile back, so to me that means they really don't care if they get anything for it. It's a perfectly capable 3D program--again, moreso than Mechanisto--and is small, fast, and quite stable even on lower-end machines. It's a great way to get accustomed to working in 3D and a great way to avoid dropping a few hundred dollars (or spending hours downloading Lightwave off Hotline :rolleyes : ). you can actually see if you have the patience and talent for 3d work, or if your brain will get pissed off because it can't translate the 2D image of the screen into a 3D space inside your noggin. (this is a problem... i've known some great 2D designers that simply can't handle working 3D space, let alone 4D)
That being said, and to address Matrix's original question, I would buy (url="http://"http://maxon.de/usa/index.html")Cinema4D Go(/url) as it's got an amazing amount of bang for the buck. AFAIK, the only difference between it and XL is that Go is limited to a resolution of 720x576 which is more than adequate for ship building purposes. And, to boot, it ships with a CD-ROM with over 140 ship parts that can be mixed-and-matched to create whatever configuration of ship you desire. (iirc, they kinda' have a babylon 5 feel to them due to the constraints imposed by modular parts) All this for US$200? Come on... that's cheap. If you're a college student, you can actually get a stafford loan to buy it as it can be considered an educational expense. (It's how I bought my new Mac---huge Stafford Loan.) If you're a high school student, might I suggest birthday present or santa claus? Or do the traditional thing and work to make money to buy it. It builds character. (And no, I'm not some old guy--I'm 20, but I just happen to have been on the internet since 1989. I remember Mosaic betas, okay? I can use a command line FTP for gawds sakes....)
Photo-editing. Unless you're rendering separate maps and compositing, you really don't need Photoshop. GraphicConvertor works great, and I'm sure Thorston Lemke would appreciate the money. (You can't pirate shareware. Even the worst of you can't rationalize that. You're stealing from an individual for crying out loud.) there's also (url="http://"http://rsb.info.nih.gov/nih-image/")NIH Image(/url), free as it's from the U.S. Government, prepaid by U.S. Tax Dollars. It actually kicks Photoshop's ass for image analysis. finally, wait about a year when MacOS X is out and building market share. It won't take long for someone to port the GIMP over to MacOS X. Then you'll have a free image editing program with all the capabilities of Photoshop, except really fantastic prepress support. (GIMP sucks for prepress...)
SO -- Don't like my opinion? Ignore me or re-read the first paragraph of this post.
Originally posted by Kwanzar: **Dude...not everyone lives in the perfect white world and can afford that kind of tsuff...so shut the uck up with your legal crap...
(This message has been edited by foo12 (edited 08-07-2000).)
And I was just thinking: Is anyone willing to run a 24/7 Hotline or Carracho server? If so, I'm willing to make an image of my StrataVision 5.0 CD for communal download, as well as the manuals for StudioPro 2.5.3. I could run the server on my machine, but I really dislike leaving my Mac up at night. (Old PowerCenter Pro 210 upgraded to a G3... sounds like an A320 on spoolup. New MPG4 is coming after Seybold.)
Hehehe...foo...you are nothin but a foo I guess. You can write your page long mumbo jumbo and most people wouldn't care...like me, they won't even read it. All I'm wondering is why do you fight so passionately about this topic? You majoring as a Computer Police Officer or somethin?
Anyways...my views are like this. People can do whatever they want as long as they leave me the heck alone. As for you...if they don't bug you...why do you care? Yes...I know it's the LAW...and I've had too many brushes there. I personally think that if people wanted to "share"...then that's their decision to make. There is a rule...NEVER TRADE WAREZ... ...I rarely pirate anything...cause I don't even know how to freakin use them (games are an exception...but they suck after a while...pirating games is BAD cause they're not even that exensive)...like those handy 3D apps that all of these "hackers" supposedly have. I doubt they even know how to use it...(anything aside from Bryce that is...) I do own (note: OWN) a copy of Photoshop 5...and that's legit property... If you gonna try out a program and toss it...be my guest...pirate the app...If it's gonna be a long term thing...like learning it and using it...buy it. In a way...I too am against warez.
Well...basially I flamed you cause you kept repeating yourself and NO ONE listened...except maybe Weepul...but still. You're not gonna change people's mind cause not everyone has morals...or cash for that matter. That's all I gots to say...so PEACE YO!
BTW: Moderators (none that I know of) have the ability to ban people...seriously...and all that use it as a threat...are pretty much full of it. (I NEVER threaten to ban people...cause I can't)
N E Way ;)...
Matrix, In my opinion the best 3D program that "real" people can use is Lightwave. It is unparaleled in it's superiority, and is completly usable for EV/O. The main reason that I use it is becouse the modeling and texturing functions available to you, the user, are the best, and in my oponion the most advanced of any other 3D program...except for MAYA (Will be released for OSX). So until I have OSX and have saved enough money for a copy of MAYA, then Lightwave IS THE BEST, and even after MAYA is released will be cheaper.
Contact me for further info, if you like?? :eek:
------------------ Kberg
We are the Borg.
Lower your shields and surrender your builds.
We will add your networkable and technologicaly distinctive game to our own collection.
Your builds will adapt to service us.
RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.
Originally posted by Kwanzar: **Hehehe...foo...you are nothin but a foo I guess. You can write your page long mumbo jumbo and most people wouldn't care...like me, they won't even read it. All I'm wondering is why do you fight so passionately about this topic? You majoring as a Computer Police Officer or somethin? **
No. I'm just tired of having to pay a piracy premium to Adobe... true, it's probably less than $50/copy, something I can make back in an hour, but piracy is stealing from me indirectly.
And it really bothers me when I see people pirating stuff that costs as much as a car, and the bitching because they don't understand how to use it and/or it crashes on their machine. They expect non gratis support... hey, go ahead and pirate, but figure it out your own damned self.
And, to save time: Vindicator, you're not serious, are you? Maya literally comes with several manuals larger than a NYC phone book and DOES cost more than my car. (Actually, iirc, it costs more than my college education.)
And seriously, people: If you're going to do this stuff, have the sanity to not talk about it when your IP is showing? I've seen otherwise legit message boards raided by the SPA and I'd rather not see AmbrosiaSW facing subpoenas from the SPA, okay? Go back to hotline.
(This message has been edited by foo12 (edited 08-08-2000).)
I live in England. The police heer wouldn't do the internet from their own arsehole, so I can talk about pretty much all I want. I don't think we even have a computer piracy police force, and if we do, all they must do is sit about eating donuts as I've never heard of an English hacker being busted.
I don't see why you're againts software piracy either. I DO NOT pirate shareware apps as they are a reasonable price, and 90% of the time it isn't some faceless corporation pocketing all the cash. I do pirate commercial programmes because they all cost so much. Each programme must cost a fair bit to produce, although to cover the overheads they would probably only need to charge about Ł30. Why on earth do they insist on charge Ł300 +? Maya as well. WTF is that Ł10,000!!! Give me a good reason why I should pay Ł10,000 on a piece of software worth Ł30 when I could be donating that money to charity (which I regularly do).
Originally posted by the Necromicon: ** I don't see why you're againts software piracy either. I DO NOT pirate shareware apps as they are a reasonable price, and 90% of the time it isn't some faceless corporation pocketing all the cash. I do pirate commercial programmes because they all cost so much. Each programme must cost a fair bit to produce, although to cover the overheads they would probably only need to charge about Ł30. Why on earth do they insist on charge Ł300 +? Maya as well. WTF is that Ł10,000!!! Give me a good reason why I should pay Ł10,000 on a piece of software worth Ł30 when I could be donating that money to charity (which I regularly do). **
Huh!? Come on boy, grow up or at least think about what you type here.
Maya and Lightwave are professional Programs to render Movies or something like that. Why would you need that? Just to play around? Yes, they are extremely expensive but if you know how to use them, you can make money by selling your work.
For hobby-artists there are free or cheap programs, get 'em and be happy. It's a matter of honesty, if you want to steal someones work, I can't (and don't want to) stop you, but I'd like to thank foo12 for his large post. It's all said there.
I just want to point out that Cinema4D GO is NOT as good as XL. Check out the feature-list and you'll see what a great tool XL is. You can do nearly everything you want to, the only thing some people miss is a radiosity renderer.
Anyway, Cinema4D GO is excellent for hobby-renderings. After some time of thinking about which program to buy, I bought this Version and I'm happy with it. Ok, there are some funktions missing I'd like to have, like NURBS, metaballs or better light- and animation-controls but it a good deal for your money.
Now come and hit me
- Marko
Originally posted by Marko: **Maya and Lightwave are professional Programs to render Movies or something like that. Why would you need that? Just to play around? Yes, they are extremely expensive but if you know how to use them, you can make money by selling your work. **
Exactly. That is one of the things you are paying for when you hand over hundreds of dollars for a program like Photoshop, or Maya, or CodeWarrior. There is the possibility that this program will be worth far more to you than you paid for it, and the people who made the program will see absolutely none of those profits. For the people who make thousands of dollars in the digital graphics industry, or the programming industry, a few hundred dollars is a bargain, for what they get out of it.
If you just want to play around, get Photodeluxe, or the free Strata3D or CodeWarrior Discover Programming edition. All of these products have features and a price that are perfectly suited to that purpose. But don't waste your time, and software companies' time by pirating. If you have to pirate a program to get it, you probably don't need it.
------------------ "Apple does not recommend allowing an elephant to operate a Mac in any environment."
Originally posted by Vindicator609: Matrix, In my opinion the best 3D program that "real" people can use is Lightwave. It is unparaleled in it's superiority, and is completly usable for EV/O. The main reason that I use it is becouse the modeling and texturing functions available to you, the user, are the best, and in my oponion the most advanced of any other 3D program...except for MAYA (Will be released for OSX). So until I have OSX and have saved enough money for a copy of MAYA, then Lightwave IS THE BEST, and even after MAYA is released will be cheaper.
Maya is about $15,000.. I don't think a peice of software should cost more than the manufacturer's price of your OS, let alone half as much as a good car.. more people would be halfway decent at 3D graphics if all the 3D software didn't cost so much. Lightwave, Electric Image, and Maya are beyond the price range of the average mortal. Maybe that's why they're only used for movies and TV shows.. :rolleyes:
------------------ "There was a terrible ghastly silence. There was a terrible ghastly noise. There was a terrible ghastly silence." - Demolition of Earth, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
AIM: evandrewm
(This message has been edited by Andrew M (edited 08-08-2000).)
First off I just want to say thankyou to everyone who has been answering my question. And to everyone else please stop bickering over software piracy. I have decided I am not going to take any of those offers. So just stop. Once again thankyou if you have answered my question.
Matrix
AOL/IM: Will346 Gameranger: (DĹRK) Viper
One last thing, if Maya, Lightwave etc etc wre cheaper, more people would get interested in using them, their would be a larger user base, we would see more excellent media, current users would be able to talk about the technical side of things with more people, and in the long term, the companies would make more money. Everybody would be happy.
I'm trying to say that if the programmes prices were dropped then progress would be made much quicker. At the moment the only people using Maya are professionals and the odd software pirate. I doubt the average joe hasn't even heard of Lightwave. I think that the more people that use and are familiar with Lightwave, the more support the programme would get.
Even if you are the most conservative software do-gooder, you can't deny this.
Originally posted by the Necromicon: I live in England. The police heer wouldn't do the internet from their own arsehole, so I can talk about pretty much all I want. I don't think we even have a computer piracy police force, and if we do, all they must do is sit about eating donuts as I've never heard of an English hacker being busted.
And this from a man who lives in a country that has some fairly draconian internet legislation pending
commercial programmes because they all cost so much. Each programme must cost a fair bit to produce, although to cover the overheads they would probably only need to charge about Ł30. Why on earth do they insist on charge Ł300 +? Maya as well. WTF is that Ł10,000!!! Give me a good reason why I should pay Ł10,000 on a piece of software worth Ł30 when I could be donating that money to charity (which I regularly do).
Originally posted by Marko: **Huh!? Come on boy, grow up or at least think about what you type here.
Maya and Lightwave are professional Programs to render Movies or something like that. Why would you need that? Just to play around? Yes, they are extremely expensive but if you know how to use them, you can make money by selling your work. **
Exactly.
Thanks man
**I just want to point out that Cinema4D GO is NOT as good as XL. Check out the feature-list and you'll see what a great tool XL is. You can do nearly everything you want to, the only thing some people miss is a radiosity renderer.
Anyway, Cinema4D GO is excellent for hobby-renderings. After some time of thinking about which program to buy, I bought this Version and I'm happy with it. Ok, there are some funktions missing I'd like to have, like NURBS, metaballs or better light- and animation-controls but it a good deal for your money.**
Do you have a product matrix that compares the two, Marko? I wasn't aware that they'd stripped radiosity out of GO but, like you say, it shouldn't matter for most people, especially on hear considering maybe 3-4 people on the boards have actually heard of radiosity and can tell you what it does. (And what it does to your rendering times... (url="http://"http://www.thefyi.com/~nathan/room_320x240.jpg")results are purty(/url), though.)
Originally posted by foo12: **How much do you know about commercial software production, honestly? I'm not trying to troll here, but I think you're missing the fact that putting out commercial software is more than writing and pressing. You have: 1) to write the manuals which requires (for a program the size of Photoshop) a team of at least 4-5 technical writers 2) Layout the manuals which requires about 4-5 designers 3) Do user testing to make sure people can use it (something Microsoft apparently neglects in half its programs...) 4) Pay for tech support 5) Pay all the janitors, receptionists, etc. 6) And still make a profit as your bound to the fiduciary interests of your shareholders.
When the size of an organization doubles, the overhead usually quadruples. Surely you don't argue that these people have a right to be compensated for their work?
Maya: Maya isn't meant for the casual end user. If it's Ł10k, it's worth every shilling if you can use it on a contract that pays Ł40k, not?
And admirable on the charity.
I'm not denying that is is costly to produe programmes, although if you think about it, at the most it would have cost about Ł500,000 - Ł1,000,000 to produce Maya. The cover the overheads, they would need only 100 people to buy Maya. They must have made an absolute killing, as there is definatly more than 100 registered users of Maya.
If they lowered the price to about Ł100, it would be in reach of small software companies that don't want to take out a second morgage on software that they can easily (yet illegaly) download from a website/hotline server. After all, it's not like they would be taking a high risk, hundreds of thousands of people pirate software.
Originally posted by Andrew M: Maya is about $15,000.. I don't think a peice of software should cost more than the manufacturer's price of your OS, let alone half as much as a good car..
Key differences:
An OS is something everyone needs to run their computer. A 3D rendering program is not, even though most people who use Maya and Lightwave can jump between platforms with no trouble because they don't care about the OS. (Lightwave has its own UI regardless if you're running it on a Mac, NT, or Irix) Apple sold over 1,000,000 million computers last quarter, each with a copy of MacOS 8.6 or MacOS 9.0. That number alone is far greater than the number of Maya licenses in existence, and that's just Macs sold in a three month period. (that's global sales, btw)
Maya, Lightwave, C4D XL, Photoshop, etc. are all far more complex than the MacOS and, as such, need to be sold at a higher price to compensate for their higher cost of development.
C4D is being ported to Be. You can get the BeOS for free. (x86 version is downloadable, sans development tools) So we should then not have to pay for C4D for Be?
**more people would be halfway decent at 3D graphics if all the 3D software didn't cost so much. Lightwave, Electric Image, and Maya are beyond the price range of the average mortal. Maybe that's why they're only used for movies and TV shows..:rolleyes: **
You're missing something---being an artisan is a talent, not a general characteristic of human beings. There are only so many people that are good at art and design. Your comment is like saying Piper should drop the prices on its airplanes so everyone could be a good pilot. Being a 3D artist and a pilot both require an uncanny spatial sense and attention to detail and procedure. Of course being an artist also means saying (f)uck detail and procedure, but you still have to keep yourself grounded in the basic talent.