Thoughts on pop-pop tourneys

I've put a bit more effort recently in crystallising out the requested changes to rules that people talked about back in lumisa's pros and cons post. The results can be found (url="http://"http://homepage.mac.com/rchristie/various/pop_pop")here(/url). There are also some detailed ideas for a team variant of pop-pop we could try if people are interested?

Either way, I'd appreciate any kudos and/or criticisms you have regarding anything listed there. Please post and let me know what's right/wrong or in need of adding! πŸ˜‰

Also, I'd really like to give Hyko's pages an official try, so I'm volunteering to shoulder the responsibility of organising a tournament match next weekend at a time most suitable for all - let me know what you all think. Everybody is welcome, and if people would like to try the 'team version' along with any alterations suggested in the meantime, that could be fun too. It would be nice to try and get 8+ people together for that πŸ™‚

Anyway, 5am here in the UK now, I should have been asleep a long while ago πŸ˜‰

Crono

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That writer does the most, who gives his reader the most knowledge, and takes from him the least time.
--> In: M. Mazzoni : Fiori e glorie della letteratura inglese, Milano, 1844, Part II, p. 68

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Originally posted by Crono:
**Anyway, 5am here in the UK now, I should have been asleep a long while ago πŸ˜‰
**

Including the lost hour by "time switch" or still wintertime? πŸ™‚

Anyway:
In an first and fast access: Your document looks really good to me. And I saw that you already added the idea of splitting the first league-style round into several groups, which is as you know fine for me. I would suggest to make this possible earlier than 16 participants. For me it would make sense to split into <B>two</B> groups already if 10 or more players are participating (because 9 or more games per player can take a huge amount of time already). The next split into four groups could be done if each group has again 10 or more players. (But this high number of participants is an illusion until the realease of the windows version, i guess :)... ). If there is a odd number of players we will have a problem to balance the groups but i think, since this is still a game, it should not disturb anybody if one group has 5 players and the other groups have 6 players. In this case the referee should judge who will participate in which group to balance it out by putting more skilled players in the bigger group for example. The basic distribution of the players on the groups could become a problem, too. But there Mr. or Mrs. Shuffle could help to do it randomly...

Just my first thoughts...

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I am sitting this one out.

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I am the fox, let my talk will thrill you, when you get to know me, my smile will chill you. With a name like anklebiter, just what did you expect? (url="http://"http://www.foxchange.com/~matt/anklecam/")The ankle cam!(/url) Out of 33 moderators, I ranked the lowest in overall ranking, temperament and trust!

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Originally posted by Hyko:
**Including the lost hour by "time switch" or still wintertime? πŸ™‚
**

That was post time shift.. I'd actually forgotten about it until I looked at my iBook's clock and though "ugh, how did that happen" then looked at my alarm clock and realised they were an hour out. So, yes, 4am 'winter' time, 5pm summer time.

Result is I woke up 2pm summer time... d'oh...

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Originally posted by Hyko:
**Anyway:
In an first and fast access: Your document looks really good to me. And I saw that you already added the idea of splitting the first league-style round into several groups, which is as you know fine for me. I would suggest to make this possible earlier than 16 participants. For me it would make sense to split into <B>two</B> groups already if 10 or more players are participating (because 9 or more games per player can take a huge amount of time already). The next split into four groups could be done if each group has again 10 or more players. (But this high number of participants is an illusion until the realease of the windows version, i guess :)... ). If there is a odd number of players we will have a problem to balance the groups but i think, since this is still a game, it should not disturb anybody if one group has 5 players and the other groups have 6 players. In this case the referee should judge who will participate in which group to balance it out by putting more skilled players in the bigger group for example. The basic distribution of the players on the groups could become a problem, too. But there Mr. or Mrs. Shuffle could help to do it randomly...

Just my first thoughts...

**

That sounds good - I've worked out that you can generally get about 6-7 games in in about an hour, assuming that you are not waiting long between them. As long as they aren't any marathon rounds like those 7min ones from days of yore (i.e. a month or two ago?) πŸ˜‰

The time taken doesn't scale too badly, because as more players become available, the time waiting between games goes down (at least at first) and if there is a gap between the skill levels of the two, the often doesn't last very long! (need a Ryoko/Dingo-style sweat-drop smiley there)

So you are probably right - and groups of 8 are probably about as big as we want, which could be split down into two groups of 4+/5 as we get to 9/10 total players. What do people feel? I know it's nice to get an "all-vs-all" approach, but it could take two hours just to do the first round otherwise.

It might be quite good - again, we can 'seed' players more for the knockout tree here. After all, I think we all know who the top seeds are cough lumisa cough shoes... πŸ˜‰ Having some sort of control might make things more fun πŸ™‚

Alternatively, the ref could just roll a dice. I think in summary, we should therefore keep 'initial' group size no smaller than 4, and no larger than 8 or 9?

Again - any comments?

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Originally posted by anklebiter:
**I am sitting this one out.

**

As you wish but let me know when (if) you would like to do yours next weekend, as I don't want to collide (main reason I dind't post a time straight off!).

The other thing is that when (again, if) large numbers of windows players take to the virtual streets, there will probably be more people wanting to play in a tournament than can possibly be dealt with by just one (or maybe even two or three, who knows!) people. I think it might be good if several people had tournament hosting 'experience' and also we all had a well matured set of guidelines to play with. E-mailing and hand-sorting results is okay for small numbers - but if you get 30/40 mails worth (IMHO) this quickly becomes unfeasible!

Just my 2p

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Looks good to me and it would be good to use Hykos tourney site. How about next Sunday, April 6th? I am sure we have had more players on a Sunday in the past. Perhaps at a time not too early for any US players and not too late for Euro players, around 7:30pm UK time?

Nice one Crono.

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Quote

Originally posted by Crono:
**As you wish but let me know when (if) you would like to do yours next weekend, as I don't want to collide (main reason I dind't post a time straight off!).

The other thing is that when (again, if) large numbers of windows players take to the virtual streets, there will probably be more people wanting to play in a tournament than can possibly be dealt with by just one (or maybe even two or three, who knows!) people. I think it might be good if several people had tournament hosting 'experience' and also we all had a well matured set of guidelines to play with. E-mailing and hand-sorting results is okay for small numbers - but if you get 30/40 mails worth (IMHO) this quickly becomes unfeasible!

Just my 2p
**

No, really. It doesn't matter, because it is obvious people have nothing better to do then to bring up something over and over and over again. Hell, I wish I could master overkill like this.

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I am the fox, let my talk will thrill you, when you get to know me, my smile will chill you. With a name like anklebiter, just what did you expect? (url="http://"http://www.foxchange.com/~matt/anklecam/")The ankle cam!(/url) Out of 33 moderators, I ranked the lowest in overall ranking, temperament and trust!

Speechless.

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Originally posted by SHOES:
**Speechless.

**

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I am the fox, let my talk will thrill you, when you get to know me, my smile will chill you. With a name like anklebiter, just what did you expect? (url="http://"http://www.foxchange.com/~matt/anklecam/")The ankle cam!(/url) Out of 33 moderators, I ranked the lowest in overall ranking, temperament and trust!

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Originally posted by anklebiter:
**No, really. It doesn't matter, because it is obvious people have nothing better to do then to bring up something over and over and over again. Hell, I wish I could master overkill like this.
**

::smiles sweetly::
Komban-wa! ^__^
Hisashiburi!
Omedito Gozaimas, lumisa ^_^

::becomes serious, and turns to anklebiter::

I've been watching this sorry saga unveil itself on these boards at first with a degree of comedy bordering on hilarity that came from general apathy... sadly now I think I should say something myself.

::sighs, and starts to reminisce::
Over the past 1/3 year or so, I have really enjoyed pop-pop. I've also been privileged to play the game far too much on a computer that isn't mine without even needing to pay. ^_^ I've taken part in tournaments that you and various other people have hosted, and after a rather shaky start (due to my own dislike of talking much to complete strangers in game/internet chat-rooms) even become 'internet friends' with some of the people who play online. By that I mean not 'friends', but probably more than just 'acquaintances'. After all, I doubt I will ever meet any of them!

That aside, I was waiting for the PC version to come out with some excitement - not only because I would then have been able to play in my own time on my own computer, but also because I could register myself and therefore give ambrosia the money they deserve!

But over the past week or so, something changed. Actually it changed a little earlier than that, about the time of the tournament before this one. Namely some people fell out.

::sighs again::
I'd really rather not have to write this, but anyways...
Guys - why can't you all just sit down and say 'gomen-nasi!' to each other?

The pop-pop 'community' (I use the term somewhat loosely here) is made up mainly of a few die-hard players, and the continuous stram of new people entering and leaving. As far as tournaments are concerned then, there are probably about 10 of us 'die-hard regulars' out there.

Crono, myself, Dingo, Hyko, Mikrisa, Lish, Lumisa, Shoes, Squibix, and (by no means least ^_^ πŸ˜‰ Texas Girl

With a few others dropping in from time to time. With such a small group - it is important that it doesn't split! It has though - hasn't it? Why?

(Apart from the obvious fact that the two of us cannot both play in one) - have we yet had a tournament where we've had nine people there?

No.

Now.. ::continues quietly:: This last tournament there were 5 by the look of it (going by the results board I presume is now correct), since you do not play yourself. (That's fine, your choice).

However, you are now blaming (or getting annoyed at) Crono (one of those 5) for starting this thread and for asking this:

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As you wish but let me know when (if) you would like to do yours next weekend, as I don't want to collide (main reason I dind't post a time straight off!).

Crono happens to be my friend in RL, and hence your doing so got me to out of my apathy to post all this.
::smiles again::
So I'd like to ask you some simple questions - that way I'm sure you can find the time to answer me like a mature grown-up:

  1. Is there something wrong with what Crono said?
  2. Do you feel he is trying to score points off or insult you?
  3. Do you think he would have shown up to your tournament if he was?
  4. Do you believe he would have tried to talk other people into going to your tournament if he was?
  5. And finally - do you realise your tournament would very probably only have consisted of two (2) people if he hadn't?

Hey, at least with two people there would be no arguments about the number of rounds, ne? ^_~

Why don't you take part in the one next Sunday - enjoy the break from having to host - and then you can have a go at participating! It might give you some ideas as to how yours is better and/or what other things you could do to improve it.

Then there'd also be one more good person playing! Everybody wins! ^^ I've never played you myself, I don't think, but you say you're good, so it would be nice to have a game. I'm just sorry we don't have any prizes for you in return. Tell you what though, if you have a paypal account, we can play a game sometime, and I'll pay you Ł10 into your account if you win. That way you can go to the pub one night (or is it a bar in the US?) on me ^^ Also as thanks for hosting the tournaments.

At the moment sadly though, I have no wish to be further part in this on-going, extremely tedious and circular debate/argument. As a result, I also have no wish to take part in playing. The person(s) who deliberately no-showed really ought to know and act better, especially if they do represent the pillars of pop-pop gaming skills ^_~

So come down off your high pedestals guys, and stop this 'I won't play in his tournament' attitude. It doesn't help anyone - this should all be past news. Maybe if you do, I'll think about playing again. ^^ lol... not that I think for a moment whether I play again or not would have any impact on your decision, but I'm just saying I'd like you to so I can feel I would like to play again! Onegai? ^^;

And, Anklebiter - why don't you start the ball rolling by just saying sorry - I don't know and certainly don't care whether it was your fault or anyone else's, but you've obviously caused offence somehow, and after all - it doesn't cost you anything to say it, does it? What's the worst that can happen? ^_^ As it happens, you've currently cost Ambrosia a registration.

Oyasumi nasai
O-Daijni
Ryoko
xx

(This message has been edited by Ryoko (edited 03-30-2003).)

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Originally posted by Ryoko:
At the moment sadly though, I have no wish to be further part in this on-going, extremely tedious and circular debate/argument.

Wow, someone finally realizes why I am not even participating in this thread, except for entertainment purposes.

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Crono happens to be my friend in RL

Keep on breathing down my neck. Keep on stomping my toes. I haven't said word and I let the issue die. And yet again, someone brings it up. (again!) The tournaments are happening now, they were not before. If you don't like it, you should have thought about it BEFORE I had to do it myself.

I hate doing this, but it looks like this isn't going to die.

THE DEBATE IS OVER WITH, AND ANYONE WHO CONTINUES TO BRING IT UP, IS GOING TO GET KARMA SLAPPED.

I don't want to do it, but people, let it go. I have seen this time and time again, so drop it.

PS: As for the novel idea idea we may soon have more pop-pop players and may need to change the tourney rules, why not read them? "In the first round, everyone will play everyone else. If more then 10 players are present, referee may improvise on this." Yes kids, this has already been planned, and an alternate course of action has already been planned.

(Just in case you didn't see it the first time.)

THE DEBATE IS OVER WITH, AND ANYONE WHO CONTINUES TO BRING IT UP, IS GOING TO GET KARMA SLAPPED.

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I am the fox, let my talk will thrill you, when you get to know me, my smile will chill you. With a name like anklebiter, just what did you expect? (url="http://"http://www.foxchange.com/~matt/anklecam/")The ankle cam!(/url) Out of 33 moderators, I ranked the lowest in overall ranking, temperament and trust!

(This message has been edited by anklebiter (edited 03-30-2003).)

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THE DEBATE IS OVER WITH, AND ANYONE WHO CONTINUES TO BRING IT UP, IS GOING TO GET KARMA SLAPPED.(/B)

YES YES GIVE IT TO ME I LOVE IT!!!

All comparisons I have in mind now are not topic of a game's board.

How many slaps do I need to be banned from buying and using ambrosia software?

I am really thinking of stopping to use this board.

CU somewhere in the pop-pop-space.

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Have a look on my inofficial tourney-system: (url="http://"http://pop-pop.webhop.net")http://pop-pop.webhop.net(/url) πŸ™‚

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Originally posted by anklebiter:
**
THE DEBATE IS OVER WITH, AND ANYONE WHO CONTINUES TO BRING IT UP, IS GOING TO GET KARMA SLAPPED.

THE DEBATE IS OVER WITH, AND ANYONE WHO CONTINUES TO BRING IT UP, IS GOING TO GET KARMA SLAPPED.

**

wow, this is amazing. first of all iΒ΄ld like to say that iΒ΄m with ryoko all the way - i agree to every single word she says.
now - i was very proud to have become a "good egg" here on this webboard, (who would have thought that that much would become of me :))...but now i will be very proud to get these promised karma slaps. because i really donΒ΄t want to be a "good egg" in a dictatorship like this. really, i have never been part of something like this before (i always lived in the south of germany, never in the "DDR" (eastern germany untill 1989) and i do not want to become a part of it now. i really enjoyed playing pop-pop and the board, but this has just changed.
i despise this kind of debate, and i do not want to be part of either side!

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Originally posted by ryoko:
**At the moment sadly though, I have no wish to be further part in this on-going, extremely tedious and circular debate/argument. As a result, I also have no wish to take part in playing. The person(s) who deliberately no-showed really ought to know and act better, especially if they do represent the pillars of pop-pop gaming skills ^_~
**

i as well find it is VERY VERY silly and childish to boycott a tournament just because of the host - that was the reason why i played the last one.
why is everybody so bullheaded?? you are ruining the fun of the game and the "community".
so, now, to finally get slapped, i would really like to play the next tournament (with no matter which host!!) using hykos site which i think is just great! (url="http://"http://pop-pop.webhop.net")http://pop-pop.webhop.net(/url)
anklebiter, everybody again was very, very friendly - i do not understand your reactions anymore. AND we were asked to tell our ideas of better rules, which we did. why are we being asked if our answers are to be ignored anyway??
Lumisa

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The tournaments will continue. If people want to do a boycott, treat yourselves. Sadly, because some keep pushing and pushing, you make it really hard for us to want to listen.

The tournaments will return to their original glory, those who are making an effort to destroy them, they are just self serving. Life goes on, deal with it.

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I am the fox, let my talk will thrill you, when you get to know me, my smile will chill you. With a name like anklebiter, just what did you expect? (url="http://"http://www.foxchange.com/~matt/anklecam/")The ankle cam!(/url) Out of 33 moderators, I ranked the lowest in overall ranking, temperament and trust!

(This message has been edited by anklebiter (edited 03-31-2003).)

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Originally posted by Hyko:
I am really thinking of stopping to use this board.

Reading this topic I tend to agree. It's kind of silly, isn't it. :frown:

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Originally posted by anklebiter:
**The tournaments will continue. If people want to do a boycott, treat yourselves. Sadly, because some keep pushing and pushing, you make it really hard for us to want to listen.

The tournaments will return to their original glory, those who are making an effort to destroy them, they are just self serving. Life goes on, deal with it.
**

very obviously i never did boycott anything ( i was there in the last tournament) or even say the smallest thing to harm the existance of tournaments or the game. i never wanted to destroy anything. everything I ever posted was PRO-tournament and PRO pop-pop (and even more PRO-anklebiter).
now - you "slapped" me once, go on - do it again: slap me for being PRO-tournament. because i will say it again: let us use hykos site: (url="http://"http://pop-pop.webhop.net")http://pop-pop.webhop.net(/url) in the next tournament. that will be fun.
but most of all: let us all keep the right of having our oppinion and the right of saying so!!!!
now go on: slap me again! i said my oppinion so i deserve no karma on this site.
thanks, Lumisa.

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one more thing: the last person who deserves a karma-slap is hyko! he NEVER asked anyone to stop playing tournaments hosted by anklebiter and was not involved in any boycott. HE played the last tournament, remember?? the only thing he did was to develop a site to help hosts and players of a tournament. i think he would deserve a karma-raise for that - nothing else!!!!

IS THERE ANYONE IN CHARGE LEFT WHO CARES ABOUT THE GAME, AND NOT ABOUT THIS SILLY "WHO-GETS-TO-HAVE-THE-LAST-WORD-WAR"???? number 279? andrew? anyone??
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(This message has been edited by lumisa (edited 03-31-2003).)

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Originally posted by lumisa:
IS THERE ANYONE IN CHARGE LEFT WHO CARES ABOUT THE GAME, AND NOT ABOUT THIS SILLY "WHO-GETS-TO-HAVE-THE-LAST-WORD-WAR"???? number 279? andrew? anyone??

Yes. Issues are being discussed to rectify the situation. Until then, I apologize profusely for the misunderstandings. These are just growing pains, we'll get through them.

Since I don't see this thread going anywhere but downhill big time, I'm locking it. Please bear with us folks, I promise it will be worth it.

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"What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us." -Oliver Wendell Holmes
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